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Ed Moving On is coming.

LashL said:
Russell,

Just one more thing that I wanted to come back to, and that is the fire shutters that you mentioned earlier.

As I mentioned earlier, my partner is a fire captain with many years of experience, and I've just finished talking to him about this. He says that he has never - ever - seen or heard of fire shutters being installed in elevator hoistways.
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I have 13 years of experience in specifying fire dampers, and I have never once put them in an eleveator shaft, nor have I ever seen an existing condition of a fire damper installed in a elevator shaft.

LashL, fire dampers are installed in either air ducts or air transfer grilles. The only openings in elevator shafts are for the doorways.
 
Crungy said:
I have 13 years of experience in specifying fire dampers, and I have never once put them in an eleveator shaft, nor have I ever seen an existing condition of a fire damper installed in a elevator shaft.

LashL, fire dampers are installed in either air ducts or air transfer grilles. The only openings in elevator shafts are for the doorways.
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Thanks, Crungy. Your sharing your expertise is much appreciated. That meshes with the information I was given and which I posted previously about them being installed in air ducts, not elevator shafts, but it's great to see it confirmed by someone with your particular area of expertise.

That's one of the many things I love about JREF - so many great sources of information, knowledge, abilities, interests and such - across such a broad spectrum.
 
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Calcas said:
Wow.

I love reading this ****. Better than the latest Grishom novel...

But seriously, props to Gravy, TAM, and the rest for *trying* to show these guys the light.

BTW, MAJOR props to a forum like this that will ALLOW contrary points of view. The Truther forums seem to ban anyone that doesn't drink their kool-aid...
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I concur. Unfortunately, the following will always filter and block any beam of truth. Evidenced be damned, the following mental blocks will always derail any attempt at logic.

The people who brought you the official story are also responsible for a significant number of innocent people dying and have brought the death toll of American soldiers to a level higher than the casualties on the day of 9/11. They have also eviscerated our Constitution via the Patriot Act, "Domestic Surveillance", and most recently the Military Commissions Act. In May of 2008 you will be subject to a scannable National Standard ID card. You and your ancestors will also likely be subjected to an endless "war on terror". All of this justified by the "official story" of 9/11 which in my opinion you uncritically embrace.
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The burden of proof, for the reason to invade several countries, don't apply to international law, declare a "global war on terrorism" and nullify habeas corpus, - "al-quaida" did 911 -, is
on behalf of your government,
for Bob's sake.
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Like most of the other forum members here, I don't agree with much of what the US government has done as a result of the 9/11 attacks, but unlike the above quotes, I can certainly see the forest of truth for the trees.
 
Russell Pickering said:
I have stated all along that my opinions and beliefs are just that - opinions and beliefs.
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And that is not critical thinking.

But out of 650 some posts not one of you have provided proof by your own "standards" of a non conspiracy. Not one.
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What part of you can't prove a negative don't you understand?

That is because both of our positions are beliefs.
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Wrong again. We have to rely on evidence, you have provided none whatsoever that proves 9/11 was an inside job conspiracy. None.

Your beliefs are based in part on government reports that are well documented to at the very least have been resisted by the administration initially, incomplete, significantly delayed, containing inaccurate data and most certainly edited by the FBI. The president of the United States refused to testify under oath, individually with any record of his account.
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That is a legitimate concern, and a good point. But it is in no way a proof of a conspiracy that 9/11 was an inside job.

In my opinion you have even gone one step further. You proclaim that you have achieved certain knowledge and have decided to lead an attack against other American citizens who actually are skeptical of the official story. You label us with names and proceed on with your agenda in violation of your own principles.
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What a load of crap. The "truthers" are doing that, not us.

If you ever bring some proof that 9/11 was an inside job, I'll gladly look at it.

:words:

If this is the definition of a "skeptic", then I proudly wear the title "Kook", "CTist" or even "Douchebag" as a badge of honor!

So long and thanks for all the fish..........
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So long.
 
LashL said:
Thanks, Crungy. Your sharing your expertise is much appreciated. That meshes with the information I was given and which I posted previously about them being installed in air ducts, not elevator shafts, but it's great to see it confirmed by someone with your particular area of expertise.

That's one of the many things I love about JREF - so many great sources of information, knowledge, abilities, interests and such across a broad spectrum.
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Glad to be of help! I am in the design industry and currently working on a 90 story high rise. Trust me, the people in the design and construction industry have more respect for the flat earth society than the CT nuts!

Since I discovered this 9/11 nuttiness last month, I've been enthralled with the whole scene. I am swamped at work and my brain is full, so I mostly skim and add a weak attempt at humour here and there. Even if I did have free time, I could not come close to matching the incredible amount of research, done with stunning clarity and a desire for truth regardless of which political court she may be residing in.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Unfortunately you failed as i did in my attempts here.
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Your attempts? What you've done so far is to post links to conspiracy movies and unintelligible theories about global mafias and what not... ETA: oh, and to compare the US to Nazi Germany...

Can you yet give me a general idea of what this massive conspiracy is about Childlike? I still don't have a clue.

You faced dogmatics, not sceptics. The problem is that a part of their BS* is that the government and in general the ruling forces of our society are idiots. All that happpens is coincidence or incompetence. They really don't see the forest for the trees but most of them are well-intended.
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That's not it. If you can't come up with good evidence that the government in complicit, either LIHOP or MIHOP, in these attacks, then we can't accuse them. Until that is done, and it hasn't been the case so far, they are presumed innocent. That is the basis of society.

What society do you want to live in when anyone can accuse anybody of mass murder without proof and this being OK?
 
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Childlike Empress said:
The burden of proof, for the reason to invade several countries, don't apply to international law, declare a "global war on terrorism" and nullify habeas corpus, - "al-quaida" did 911 -, is
on behalf of your government,
for Bob's sake. :mad:
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Start a thread for that in the politics section, Childlike, if you're willing to actually participate in a discussion, rather than simply dropping off links to videos as usual.
 
Childlike Empress said:
You fear wood at all, i guess.
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Nope. I'm orginally from Prague and my entire life has been filled with first hand stories of governmental lies. I have spent time in communist countries and seen the effect that a Big Brother government has on society. It's pretty damn scary when your own relatives can't converse without the fear that someone is listening in. Currently, I'm living in Illinois, near Chicago. The former governor was recently sentenced to prison. The current governor has associates that are looking at possible prison terms. The Chicago goverment is prepetually serving up officials to our prisons. I'm extremely aware that government can do very bad things. I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that the US government was in any way involved in the 9/11 attacks.
 
Childlike Empress said:
The burden of proof, for the reason to invade several countries, don't apply to international law, declare a "global war on terrorism" and nullify habeas corpus, - "al-quaida" did 911
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The evidence proving that al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11 is out there Childlike, look it up.

As Gravy said, the rest is politics.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Do you accuse me of Bush-Apologetics?
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I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm just saying that even though you're will to seek out the truth about 9/11 is commendable, you seem to have already accused the Bush administration, before any proof has been found. This is the case with the "Truth Movement", and I'm not OK with it. I find this to be a dangerous way of thinking.

All evidence I have seen point to al Qaeda. Since I am in no position to tell 100% for sure that it is true, I therefore have to rely on the professionals who made these investigations. So far, I have seen no significant reason to doubt them.
 
[Insert 9 Childlike posts about how we don't understand what she's saying]

Okay, you may proceed to discuss something substantive.
 
Sorry to see you go Russell.
However I do have one last parting request.
I encourage you to select your favorite researcher.
Steven Jones, Griffin, Thompson...whoever.
Explore the 911truth movement's top researchers and claims.
Research your favorite pro conspiracy movie. Please explore their claims.
Use the same methodology you applied during your Pentagon research.
Research the sources.

Then ask yourself how on earth do they get SO many claims incorrect.
Do you believe these researchers use a solid methodogy?

Best Scott
 
Childlike, look at Killtown's behaviour. Do you agree with it? I think I know you enough to say that you don't.

He's accusing an innocent woman of being complicit in a most horrible crime, whitout any proof, none whatsoever. I'm sure you agree.

Now, why would this behaviour be OK when it concerns an entire government? I know governments and presidents are untouchable entities, but the accusations are still wrong.

Do you understand what' I'm saying?
 
Crungy said:
Glad to be of help! I am in the design industry and currently working on a 90 story high rise. Trust me, the people in the design and construction industry have more respect for the flat earth society than the CT nuts!

Since I discovered this 9/11 nuttiness last month, I've been enthralled with the whole scene. I am swamped at work and my brain is full, so I mostly skim and add a weak attempt at humour here and there. Even if I did have free time, I could not come close to matching the incredible amount of research, done with stunning clarity and a desire for truth regardless of which political court she may be residing in.
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All skeptics here add to the depth of knowledge, ability, information, skill, research, expertise, and character that makes up this forum in one way or another, Crungy, and your posts are part of that - so it's all good, even if you don't have much free time. And it's always good to see someone's particular expertise come in handy, as yours did above :)
 
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