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Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

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The was one PH.d that was left out of the loop and just wrote about the concrete core he knew.

(link to a PDF document)

Your link is to a document published in November 2001, mainly concerning itself with the response to the disaster by structural engineers. The author is a specialist in engineering law and was not connected in any way with the construction of the towers. The quote you are referring to is in page 5:

It was designed as a tube building that included a perimeter moment-resisting frame consisting of steel columns spaced on 39-inch centers. The load carrying system was designed so that the steel facade would resist lateral and gravity forces and the interior concrete core would carry only gravity loads.

This is most likely a mistake (much like the BBC diagram) as it is contradicted by the other evidence. It is part of the general introduction to the document and has no cited source.

I know it is a bit of a waste of time my pointing this out, but there you go.

Anyway, if you're sure that the author of this paper thinks there was a concrete core, why not contact him?

He's a lawyer and so his law office is listed publicly:

August W. Domel Jr.
Firm: Domel, August W. Jr.
Address: P.O. Box 981
Dundee, IL 60118-0481
Phone: (630) 213-7800

(found via google in a matter of minutes).
 
I can see the dialogue now:

CHRIS: Mr. Domel, did you mention in your 2001 SEERP paper that the WTC had a concrete core?

DOMEL: [snip]Yes, I did...[snip]

CHRIS: See? RAW EVIDENCE!!!! [link to own website][blurry photo]
 
I can see the dialogue now:

CHRIS: Mr. Domel, did you mention in your 2001 SEERP paper that the WTC had a concrete core?

DOMEL: [snip]Yes, I did...[snip]

CHRIS: See? RAW EVIDENCE!!!! [link to own website][blurry photo]

Please provide link to web site using raw evidence to document steel core columns.

Here is the site that uses raw evidence to show there were no steel core columns and for those with experience, a concrete core.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html
 
Once again, for the thinking impaired: there is no raw evidence on your website, Chris. Your credibility is nil. Any document you produce is suspect.

Websites are not raw evidence, Chris. But here's one anyway.

Honesty and integrity are unfamiliar with you, Chris. You live in a mansion of lies and deceits. Your currency is falsehood, your garments are illusion. Truth is a stranger in your home.
 
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If this is not raw evidence, what is?

If that is not a 17 x 30 foot block of concrete what is it?

While you are reasonably answering questions, since I've reasonably answered so many, explain why there are no steel croe columns penetraing the stairwell?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3647&stc=1&d=1161401774

That's debris, smoke and dust. I have provided higher resolution photos which show it to be nothing more than That. But you continue to lie.

Prove me wrong and point out the concrete wall in the photos I provided.
 
Once again, for the thinking impaired: there is no raw evidence on your website, Chris. Your credibility is nil. Any document you produce is suspect.

Websites are not raw evidence, Chris. But here's one anyway.

Honesty and integrity are unfamiliar with you, Chris. You live in a mansion of lies and deceits. Your currency is falsehood, your garments are illusion. Truth is a stranger in your home.

Sad your vision and reading skills are impaired.

Christophera said:
Please provide link to web site using raw evidence to document steel core columns.

I did not say "websites are raw evidence", I said a site "using raw evidence.

Obviously that means a site showing the supposed steel core columns in the core area. The below site does not show steel core columns inside the core area.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html

My image of the "MASSIVE BOX COLUMNS" is much closer that the one on your link and it shows much smaller vertical steel in the core area. Not core columns,

Clearly you have no evidence.
 
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That's debris, smoke and dust. I have provided higher resolution photos which show it to be nothing more than That. But you continue to lie.

Prove me wrong and point out the concrete wall in the photos I provided.

homer,

You images show a plie of debri in front of the concrete. They are useless.

This image of the core wall at its base is plenty clear to;

1) show that there are no steel core columns because if there were they would be protruding from the stairrwell.

2)If the steel core columns existed they would be sen to the right and in the foreground.

3)The wide gray area to the right of the interior box column has rounded corners which appears only as concrete can under those conditions.

homer, you have no evidence for the steel core columns. There is not even a web site using raw evidence to document the steel core. There is one that documents the concrete whic also documents the fact that there were no steel core columns.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html
 
can you show me where those columns are in this picture?

How about this one.

Does NIST explain what those super fine vertical elements are?
In your first picture, I cannot explain where the columns are, because there is too much debris to see clearly what is going on. The second picture is of utterly insufficient resolution to determine anything at all. It is totally useless, because the width of one of the columns would be, at most, one pixel wide. I've explained to you on a previous occasion why it is inappropriate to use it as evidence of small objects. Do you not understand the limitations of photography and .jpg images?


But that's not what I asked you.

Please justify each of the following, because they cast your position in serious doubt:

Why do the floor plans from the reference above include crossed hallways on almost every floor, yet you don't include crossed hallways, instead preferring to stagger them on alternate floors?

Why do you have cross-shaped interior walls in your drawing, when in fact there are hallways depicted in those locations in the referenced pages?

Do you still claim that the north and south towers were significantly different in layout? Because that's what your site says.

If you don't think that reference is valid, then you have to provide proof of your assertion. Provide your calculations, sketches and explanations, if you choose to make a technical claim. Provide evidence of a conspiracy if one exists. But nobody believes the fool who hand-waves in the face of a better explanation.


Christophera said:
homer, you have no evidence for the steel core columns.
If you refer to him as "homer", can I refer to you a "bleeding virgin"?
 
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Seeing as I don't waste my time determining which fraud is nost fraudlent or dependent on other frauds, I won't be doing a study on the FEMA/NIST interdependence for deception.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." [Sagan] You're the one accusing NIST of bias in using the FEMA report as the basis of its investigations and conclusions. It is therefore up to you to do the legwork in exposing the collusions and frauds. Your stated refusal to do so further erodes your credibility on this matter, were that possible.

Christophera said:
The was one PH.d that was left out of the loop and just wrote about the concrete core he knew.

http://www.ncsea.com/downloads/wtcseerp.pdf
For what it's worth, one HowardRoark on abovetopsecret.com apparently took the time to ask SEERP about this and received a reply from them. From that post:
HowardRoark on AboveTopSecret said:
I just recieved this e-mail from the SEERP Commitee:
External Source said:
Following is the response I received to your question, from Ron Hamburger:

The core was not concrete. It was also structural steel. The SEERP report is in error, if it says “concrete”
 
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." [Sagan] You're the one accusing NIST of bias in using the FEMA report as the basis of its investigations and conclusions. It is therefore up to you to do the legwork in exposing the collusions and frauds. Your stated refusal to do so further erodes your credibility on this matter, were that possible.

If NIST could explain the image below credibly, what you say might have veracity. Instead, since 3,000 innocent Americans were killed and due process violated, evidence removed and destroyed, now your credibility as an American that loves their rights and freedoms is in question.

NIST's attempts to explain this are a harbinger of greater loss of rights and freedoms and worse. Their explanation is ludicrous for any American who has watched TV and film wherein high explosives are seen detonating, despite the varity possible therein. The notion that this is a collapse is laughable, literally.
Get your evidence (sic) together yourself.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3665&stc=1&d=1161464673
 

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If NIST could explain the image below credibly, what you say might have veracity. Instead, since 3,000 innocent Americans were killed and due process violated, evidence removed and destroyed, now your credibility as an American that loves their rights and freedoms is in question.

NIST's attempts to explain this are a harbinger of greater loss of rights and freedoms and worse. Their explanation is ludicrous for any American who has watched TV and film wherein high explosives are seen detonating, despite the varity possible therein. The notion that this is a collapse is laughable, literally.
Get your evidence (sic) together yourself.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3665&stc=1&d=1161464673

You find the fact that the towers collapsed laughable? Go tell that to the relatives of the some 2700 people that died in or around the WTC.

:mad:
 
In your first picture, I cannot explain where the columns are, because there is too much debris to see clearly what is going on. The second picture is of utterly insufficient resolution to determine anything at all. It is totally useless, because the width of one of the columns would be, at most, one pixel wide. I've explained to you on a previous occasion why it is inappropriate to use it as evidence of small objects. Do you not understand the limitations of photography and .jpg images?

The image of the WTC core would show core columns silhouetted if they were there. It is too convienent for you to claim the image is not good enough. Your excuse will not fly.

Well the 3" REBAR ON 4' CENTERS is immediately after the image showing the spire which is clearly visible and your image calculations say it sould not be seen and the image of the rebar was taken a second later from the same camera at almost exacly the same position, so your excuse there is nothing but unacceptable.


Please justify each of the following, because they cast your position in serious doubt:

Why do the floor plans from the reference above include crossed hallways on almost every floor, yet you don't include crossed hallways, instead preferring to stagger them on alternate floors?

Why do you have cross-shaped interior walls in your drawing, when in fact there are hallways depicted in those locations in the referenced pages?

Do you still claim that the north and south towers were significantly different in layout? Because that's what your site says.

If you don't think that reference is valid, then you have to provide proof of your assertion. Provide your calculations, sketches and explanations, if you choose to make a technical claim. Provide evidence of a conspiracy if one exists. But nobody believes the fool who hand-waves in the face of a better explanation.

Again photographic evidence shows you to be wrong. The 2 towers have obivously different hallway layouts as acn be easily seen by the silhouetted towers. You plans are from a fraudulent source and every piece of it must be qualified by comparison to raw evidence before it can be deemed acceptable and quality.

North tower on left. Sunrise silhouette

South tower on left. Mid day silouette


If you refer to him as "homer", can I refer to you a "bleeding virgin"?
 
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank thee Lord, that in thy merc-
[hah]
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave, Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[bang]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right, I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come 'ere!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a loony.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs!
Have at you! Come on then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's other leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: All right; we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR: Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow
bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you.
I'll bite your legs off!
 
Again photographic evidence shows you to be wrong. The 2 towers have obivously different hallway layouts as acn be easily seen by the silhouetted towers. You plans are from a fraudulent source and every piece of it must be qualified by comparison to raw evidence before it can be deemed acceptable and quality.

North tower on left. Sunrise silhouette

South tower on left. Mid day silouette
You do recall that one core was oriented 90° to the other, don't you? If you want to use those pictures, you need to find a similar photograph taken from a position 90° to one side. You have provided a view east (into the rising sun) and west (toward the Hudson River). You need one looking north or south. This isn't rocket science; to compare photographs of the core structures, you need pictures of the wide faces of each one, and pictures of the narrow faces of each one. Without both views, your evidence is insufficient.

But it gets better. In your sunrise photograph, do you realize that the hallways in the core area are depicted as being stacked one on top of the other, rather than staggered on alternate floors (like in your drawing). How can you possibly claim that your drawing is correct, when your own photo obviously contradicts it? Your drawing has been proven incorrect; you must retract it.


Additionally, you claimed that the report was a "fraudulent source". What is your proof that NIST is a fraudulent organization? Without proof, your statement appears libellous; are you so desperate that you must resort to defamation? We require proof of this alleged fraud.


The image of the WTC core would show core columns silhouetted if they were there. It is too convienent for you to claim the image is not good enough. Your excuse will not fly.
On the contrary. You made the claim, therefore you must support it. You need to prove (with calculations, if necessary) why it is good enough. The burden of proof rests with you.

And furthermore, the notion that the image "would show core columns silhouetted" is foolish. Recall your own posted images that required illumination through the building (e.g. direct sunlight) to see the hallways. You tell us that in a cloud of dense grey dust and smoke, we ought to be able to see clear through to the other side? No detail within the building is visible in that photograph, because the lighting is insufficient, and the smoke and dust obscure the building.

Well the 3" REBAR ON 4' CENTERS is immediately after the image showing the spire which is clearly visible and your image calculations say it sould not be seen and the image of the rebar was taken a second later from the same camera at almost exacly the same position, so your excuse there is nothing but unacceptable.
I did not say that the "spire" was supposed to be invisible. Recall that here I asked you to edit a copy of that image, and to make a dimension mark across the 4' rebar centers. Why didn't you do so? And here, I explained to you the meaning of resolution with regard to your images and your rebar. With calculations, explain why you believe my math to be in error.
 
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homer,

You images show a plie of debri in front of the concrete. They are useless.

This image of the core wall at its base is plenty clear to;

1) show that there are no steel core columns because if there were they would be protruding from the stairrwell.

2)If the steel core columns existed they would be sen to the right and in the foreground.

3)The wide gray area to the right of the interior box column has rounded corners which appears only as concrete can under those conditions.

homer, you have no evidence for the steel core columns. There is not even a web site using raw evidence to document the steel core. There is one that documents the concrete whic also documents the fact that there were no steel core columns.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

The pictures I posted are of the same core structure.One of them is even the SAME picture that you are using except it is at a higher resolution.
You do not see a 17 foot concrete wall because there is no concrete wall.
What your pointing out in your picture is smoke and dust obscured by JPEG artifacting. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

here are your steel collumns. All I did was highlight them out using the floor plan info.
This picture also contradicts one of the newsgroup letters you posted. It clearly shows the steel collumns AND NO CONCRETE CORE.

But hey. go ahead and continue to deny it. It just makes you look more rediculous and dishonest.
 

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Where's the concrete?
 

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If NIST could explain the image below credibly, what you say might have veracity.

It has been explained credibly. It's not NIST's fault that you do not understand it or are unwilling to accept it.

Instead, since 3,000 innocent Americans were killed and due process violated, evidence removed and destroyed, now your credibility as an American that loves their rights and freedoms is in question.
How, exactly, was due process violated?

Why do you say that evidence was removed and destroyed when the rubble was not completely cleared from Ground Zero until nearly 18 months after the attacks and investigators were given free access to both the excavation site during removal and the scrap yard that housed the debris after it was removed and some of the debris, including steel beams, is still being held in hangars?

Exactly what everyday rights and freedoms that you had on September 10th 2001 do you not have today?


Their explanation is ludicrous for any American who has watched TV and film wherein high explosives are seen detonating, despite the varity possible therein. The notion that this is a collapse is laughable, literally.
Get your evidence (sic) together yourself.
So basically your argument is : The WTC collapse looks like something I saw in "Die Hard" and in "Die Hard" there was a bomb, therefore the WTC was taken town with explosives?
 
It has been explained credibly. It's not NIST's fault that you do not understand it or are unwilling to accept it.

How, exactly, was due process violated?

Why do you say that evidence was removed and destroyed when the rubble was not completely cleared from Ground Zero until nearly 18 months after the attacks and investigators were given free access to both the excavation site during removal and the scrap yard that housed the debris after it was removed and some of the debris, including steel beams, is still being held in hangars?

Exactly what everyday rights and freedoms that you had on September 10th 2001 do you not have today?


So basically your argument is : The WTC collapse looks like something I saw in "Die Hard" and in "Die Hard" there was a bomb, therefore the WTC was taken town with explosives?

Welcom on board, Yodaluver28. :)

I should warn you. This is Christopheras fun-thread where he never will listen to you until he breaks the record for the largest thread of all times. No kidding here.
 
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