Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Huntster]

Children are born with trust, if you want to call this faith, so be it.

It is thus.

This is needed in order to survive.

Faith is needed to survive spiritually.

And at first the parent is godlike to the child even if the child does not know the concept. So if a child believes something a parent tells them that is just normal.

Yup.

The problem is that this can become a major problem and often does when the child gets old enough to know enough to catch a parent in a lie.

That's when faith takes a big hit.

Moral, keep you lies to yourself about god.

Am I your Daddy?

Are you still a teen?

 

[Paulhoff]

I believe in the Easter Bunny way more then any god thought of by humankind.

Also I think you are confusing a child’s belief and or faith with an adults belief and or faith, it is not the same, because a child lacks experience and it’s belief many times if not always comes from it’s parents and or caretakers. Change the parents belief and the child’s will follow.

I am retired, are you?

Paul

 

[Huntster]

I believe in the Easter Bunny way more then any god thought of by humankind.

Well, then, I hope the Easter Bunny brings you lots of brightly colored eggs.

Also I think you are confusing a child’s belief and or faith with an adults belief and or faith, it is not the same, because a child lacks experience and it’s belief many times if not always comes from it’s parents and or caretakers.

That is precisely my point.

 

[Tricky]

Well, then, I hope the Easter Bunny brings you lots of brightly colored eggs.

And I hope your God sends you to your fluffy and worry-free heaven. I think they are equally likely.

That is precisely my point.

It certainly didn't seem that way when you said:

Children are capable of great faith. As we grow and are infected with the diseases of doubt, pride, independence, etc., we lose our faith to knowledge.

So doubt and independance are diseases? They infect us and cause us to seek knowledge?

No, Hunster, you are on record here. You seem to find childish faith to be admirable, not naive. Not very suprising, considering your own narrow view of the world.

 

[zizzybaluba]

And because of those things, we don't know. We either believe or doubt.

You don't see how Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, and God could be exchanged in my examples?

 

[zizzybaluba]

Then, the Easter Bunny is real for you.

That's not the conclusion you should draw from what Paul said.
There is equal evidence for the existence of the Easter Bunny as there is of God. Therefore, both are equally likely to exist.

 

[Tricky]

That's not the conclusion you should draw from what Paul said.
There is equal evidence for the existence of the Easter Bunny as there is of God. Therefore, both are equally likely to exist.

You are obviously not grasping the difference.

Children believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy without evidence.

Grown-ups believe in God without evidence.

Duh.

 

[Paulhoff]

Well, then, I hope the Easter Bunny brings you lots of brightly colored eggs.

This is the problem with people who don’t know that they really don’t know the different between faith and reality.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Well, then, I hope the Easter Bunny brings you lots of brightly colored eggs.

And I hope your God sends you to your fluffy and worry-free heaven.

Thank you!

I think they are equally likely.

If Paulhoff's faith is as strong as mine, so do I.

Originally Posted by Huntster
That is precisely my point.

It certainly didn't seem that way when you said:

Originally Posted by Huntster
Children are capable of great faith. As we grow and are infected with the diseases of doubt, pride, independence, etc., we lose our faith to knowledge.

So doubt and independance are diseases?

To faith?

Yup. Deadly. They kill faith.

They infect us and cause us to seek knowledge?

Yup and nope.

They infect us, but don't cause us to seek knowledge.

As knowledge comes with growth in the physical world, faith dies.

No, Hunster, you are on record here. You seem to find childish faith to be admirable, not naive. Not very suprising, considering your own narrow view of the world.

It shouldn't be surprising. I've restated it again and again.

Yes, I'm on record here, and in many other places. Childish faith is the goal of faith. Christ repeated that reality again and again.

My view of "the world" is narrow: it sucks:

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? What could one give in exchange for his life? Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this faithless and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.

Mark 8:35-38

 

[Huntster]

You don't see how Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, and God could be exchanged in my examples?

Yes, I do, in accordance with your view.

But you clearly don't see the difference in my view.

 

[Huntster]

]Originally Posted by Huntster
Then, the Easter Bunny is real for you.

That's not the conclusion you should draw from what Paul said.[/QUOTE]

Why not? Isn't that what he wrote?

There is equal evidence for the existence of the Easter Bunny as there is of God.

No, there is a difference.

We "know" about rabbits.

We don't "know" about God.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Well, then, I hope the Easter Bunny brings you lots of brightly colored eggs.

This is the problem with people who don’t know that they really don’t know the different between faith and reality.

Is it?

I'm not going to get brightly colored eggs from the Easter Bunny.

I don't believe the Easter Bunny exists.

 

[Paulhoff]

If Paulhoff's faith is as strong as mine, so do I.

Now the play with words game. Once about you confuse faith with reality and I will add knowledge to that to. Also at what level and or age does one not believe in silly things, I started around 7 for all, the rabbit, Santa, magic, and the biggest one of all my parents not being perfect, oh and that god one too, the stories in the bible where to childless for me even as a child.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

.....Also at what level and or age does one not believe in silly things

I think it's 7 years, 6 months, and 12 days. Magically, when the sun rises that morning, all belief in the Easter Bunny, Santa, etc are erased.

I started around 7 for all, the rabbit, Santa, magic, and the biggest one of all my parents not being perfect, oh and that god one too, the stories in the bible where to childless for me even as a child.

I'm so impressed with your adulthood, knowledge, and skepticism at the age of 7.

How old are you now? Eight?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Children aren't born faithful. It's a brainwashing process. Once you can get people to have faith you can sell them anything. Exploiting the faithful is all religions have ever done.

First get them to buy the concept of faith and then by merely questioning that you can manipulate them easily.

Religious faith is a burden that clouds your mind and in extreme cases leads to mental illness.

I have no faith in faith.

To quote my 4 1/2 year old niece at a funeral. "Who's Jesus? Where is he? why isn't he here? Jesus... Jesus... Cheese us... Why does he have 'cheese' in his name? Why is this taking so long?"

Steven

 

[Roadtoad]

Now the play with words game. Once about you confuse faith with reality and I will add knowledge to that to. Also at what level and or age does one not believe in silly things, I started around 7 for all, the rabbit, Santa, magic, and the biggest one of all my parents not being perfect, oh and that god one too, the stories in the bible where to childless for me even as a child.

Paul

Some of us, Paul, can be sucked back in, unfortunately.

We find ourselves in pain or sorrow. We find that there is little comfort in this world, save for the company of friends. So we seek that out, usually in the form of familiar gatherings of those we're told are our friends. We go to the Church, seeking something resembling kindness, or even mercy.

For a time, because we're new, we get it. But it doesn't take long before the Church reveals itself for what it is: a means of either securing or maintaining the leadership of the social order of a community. It isn't about healing, or creating. It's now about the Benjamins. (It's why the catchphrase "stewardship" is so popular within so many denominations; it's just another word for "tithe.")

It doesn't matter what you do during the week. Sunday is what counts. If you're not there, you're not "contributing," you're not "ministering" to your bretheren. It has ceased to be what its founders intended it to be. It's now a political tool, and God, whatever He/She/It may be, is not being served, but is the now, in fact, the pawn.

And you know something? I'm tired of God. I'm tired of the self-serving bleats by those who claim to know Him, and their use of His name to batter people I know and love into submission to "His" will. Kathy is to be pitied, but she's also to be censured, because she's doing the exact same thing as was likely done to her. She learned nothing, not because she was incapable of learning it, but because she chose not to. Ditto Huntster, and a whole host of others who have come through the doors to this board. (One of the few who didn't was Stamenflicker, who, oddly enough, was a pastor. Wish he'd jump back in once in a while.)

So, Church, I suppose the best way to say it is, I'm done with you. When you get back to preaching Christ and Him Crucified, let me know. Otherwise, f*** you and the horse you rode in on.

 

[Huntster]

.......So, Church, I suppose the best way to say it is, I'm done with you. When you get back to preaching Christ and Him Crucified, let me know. Otherwise, f*** you and the horse you rode in on.

I hope you keep your promise. If not, I'll remind you.

And stay away from my horse.

 

[Roadtoad]

I hope you keep your promise. If not, I'll remind you.

And stay away from my horse.

Okay. Now THAT one was actually funny!

 

[Paulhoff]

I'm so impressed with your adulthood, knowledge, and skepticism at the age of 7.

Yes I saw the world for what it was at an early age, that was not my fault, it was my blessing and also my curse because of people with mindsets like yours. I have put up with people of limited insight for over 50 years now. I know I can’t help you, you are a lost cause.

Paul

 

[Ossai]

ceo_esq

That passage from the Catechism indicates that those who are consciously ignorant of God but who sincerely try to do good inasmuch as their consciences permit them to discern it can attain heaven - even if they never actually overcome their formal ignorance of God. That means that at least under some circumstances, one could be ignorant of God yet not be damned. You earlier suggested that all those who remained ignorant of God were damned, did you not?

No it doesn’t. Actually read the passage. There is no earning your way into heaven without knowing god. The only way in is to attempt and then rely on god’s grace. Grace being the key point.


Ossai