No God you say? Please read me.

He (she) then had the audacity to post a message suggesting that there may be a grand design to it all. The replies, I felt, were quite aggressive and I felt quite sorry for this person.

After 4000 years I believe that a certain level of agresssion is justified. If not, I can still understand why it still surfaces.

Then I saw (didn’t read, perhaps I should have) a thread posing the question “Does skepticism make you smarter?”

Here is my confession for which I most sincerely apologise. I thought “What an arrogant bunch!”

There's two kind of arrogant people: Those who are right, and those who are just arrogant.
 
I can't begin to understand what argument you're making. The reason that a believer's testimony is not "evidence" is because it merely reasserts the question under discussion. To say "well, this guy really, really, believes God spoke to him" is useful evidence of the man's state of mind, but tells us nothing whatsoever about whether there actually is a God who can speak to people.

And similarly, to tell a doctor "I must have eaten something I'm allergic to" says something about your state of mind, but doesn't tells us nothing about whether or not the patient actually has any food allergies.

Or, for that matter, when a field biologist's report that they spotted a pair of nesting eagles at such and such a place, "is useful evidence of the man's state of mind, but tells us nothing whatsoever about whether there actually is" a pair of eagles there.

To say "well, if enough people show up who say God spoke to them, then we'll start to say that this is looking likely) would be a gross logical error.

Only in the sense that all of science is also a gross logical error.

Sometimes you have to take eyewitness testimony seriously. Sometimes it's all you have. Sometimes it's all you can expect to have.

Now, in the case of eyewitness testimony about God, I can name some very specific reasons why I might mistrust it. Just because eyewitness testimony is not, in general, automatically invalid does not mean that it is automatically valid. But the point is one of relative credibility and reliability, not of (in legal terms) "admissibility."

I can claim to have spoken to my department chair today and no one sensible will question it. I can claim to have spoken to God and no one sensible will do anything but. But that illustrates that the key differences is not in the nature of the claim that I make -- eyewitness testimony of personal experience is fine. The key difference is that between God and my department chair(*).

(*) Of course, the real distinction is that "God doesn't think He's my department chair."
 
I can't begin to understand what argument you're making. The reason that a believer's testimony is not "evidence" is because it merely reasserts the question under discussion. To say "well, this guy really, really, believes God spoke to him" is useful evidence of the man's state of mind, but tells us nothing whatsoever about whether there actually is a God who can speak to people. To say "well, if enough people show up who say God spoke to them, then we'll start to say that this is looking likely) would be a gross logical error.

When I describe symptoms to my doctor the doctor is trying to determine both whether I am sick and what is causing my sickness. My specific complaints are useful evidence of what I am feeling--just as the believer's claim that God spoke to him is useful evidence as to the believer's state of mind. But if I go to the doctor and say "I have shingles, I know it" but the doctor sees no good evidence that I have shingles, my repeated and insistent testimony to that effect doesn't add a shred of evidence to the claim.

When you say you'll accept expert testimony without double-checking it you again merely highlight the question-begging inherent in the notion that a believer's testimony of God's presence is "evidence." We accept expert testimony because we know that the expert has trained in an objective body of knowledge (fingerprint matching may not be a great example of this). We know, in other words, that the expert could if pressed explain step-by-step how they arrived at their position on the basis of the evidence before them. But this is exactly what we are trying to do with the question of God's existence. The believer cannot say "well, I'm an expert in divine appearances, and here's how I know this one was authentic." All they can do is continue to insist upon a feeling of certainty. It is only if we beg the question--only if we accept the conclusion that God exists as our starting point--that we can start to imagine that there are such things as people "expert" in identifying "true" manifestations of the divinity.

So, in this case, the line is a very hard and clear one.

Not to gang up on you, Yoink, but... :)

First of all, there are tons of literature supposedly describing firsthand witnessing of the acts of the Christian God and other related miracles. (Then you have all those other religions as well. :)) So your citing of personal testimony from believers as the supposed evidence is far too limited in scope.

Secondly - if you tell your doctor you have shingles, I suspect that the first thing a competent physician will do is assess you to either confirm or eliminate that possiblity first. Your interpretation of your symptoms may be in error, but the anecdotal evidence provided by your claim has value. :)

There is a line between "no evidence" and "poor evidence"... and the line, as you put it, is a very hard one. However, your "line" is far too absolute; you would have to provide proof that the centuries (in some religions, millennia) of anecdotal evidence was wrong or misinterpreted in order to simply dismiss it.

Sorry, Yoink, but the rules of logic that govern skepticism cut both ways. :)
 
Has anyone seen KuriousKathy? I miss her witty banter.
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P.P.S. So why the two A4 pages? Well I got drawn in by lively debate and really wanted to present valid argument and impress you. But I couldn't counter without delving into areas of faith and belief. And I wouldn't impress you with that!

I think that's the key point that most of the apologists and would-be evangelicals on this board miss. There's nothing about science or skepticism that demands that God not exist.

There's lots of scientific evidence that could exist in support of the idea of God -- for example, it would be hard to explain away a flat-ASCII copyright notice ("Copyright 4004 BCE by God. All rights reserved.") that appears in a previously unmapped section of DNA that is common to all living things. The Theory of Evolution could have blown up in any number of ways and shown us the hand of God. However, all of this evidence is at best hypothetical if not outright counterfactual.

There's also nothing in science or skepticism that eliminates the notion of an extremely boring and inactive God -- the ultimate Couch Potato, who does nothing that affects the physical world and never has. But Occam's razor suggests that there's no reason to believe in such a Being.

So science doesn't quibble with the idea of God, just with the idea of God as portrayed in such a way that violates what else we've seen (such as creating the world in six days 6000 years ago). In which case the problem is with the portrayers....

So my congratulations on having so quickly grasped what so many others have missed.
 
And similarly, to tell a doctor "I must have eaten something I'm allergic to" says something about your state of mind, but doesn't tells us nothing about whether or not the patient actually has any food allergies.

You're skipping over several steps in the chain of reasoning here, though. You're saying "well, let us assume that the patient is an 'expert' in his own food allergies--has experienced them before, knows what they feel like etc. etc.'

So, in other words, you assume that the existence of these allergies is already established (unlike God), their effects upon the patient already observed and tested (unlike God) etc. etc.

But if a patient showed up in your office (assuming you're the doctor) and said "I've been up vomiting all night; it has never happened to me before, but I assume I ate something I am allergic to" you'd be a fool to lend any more weight to the allergy theory than to any other possible reason for the symptoms presented. In other words, the patient's statement has evidentiary weight in those areas where the patient has demonstrable, verifiable knowledge ("I was vomiting all night") but has no evidentiary weight whatsoever in which the patient has no such knowledge ("it must be allergies.")

This becomes clearer, perhaps, if we give the account of a patient offering testimony for something inherently unlikely. Say your patient appears and says "every time I swallow it feels like there is a creature in my chest who grabs my oesophagus and squeezes it." Now, this gives a nice, graphic account of the patient's subjective feeling. But no doctor is going to say "well, if that's what you say you feel, then I guess we have to start by giving you a scan for chest-creatures."

You see? In each case, the statements you take to have evidentiary weight are ones where the thing in question is to some degree already settled (the patient's experience with allergies etc.). With the question of God, it is the thing that is in question which needs to be suppositionally accepted (i.e. begging the question) before testimony can be taken to have evidentiary weight.

Or, for that matter, when a field biologist's report that they spotted a pair of nesting eagles at such and such a place, "is useful evidence of the man's state of mind, but tells us nothing whatsoever about whether there actually is" a pair of eagles there.

No. We have prior evidence of the existence of these eagles. We know something about this person's experience at identifying birds etc. etc. If the same person said "oh, and by the way I witnessed a perpetual motion machine at the same site" we'd have no reason to think that such a machine existed. The statement would have no evidentiary weight at all.

Only in the sense that all of science is also a gross logical error.

You think science is based on taking people's word for having witnessed things which they cannot demonstrate?

Sometimes you have to take eyewitness testimony seriously. Sometimes it's all you have. Sometimes it's all you can expect to have.

Again, I said nothing against eyewitness testimony per se. I said that testimony of something whose existence has yet to be proven, or demonstrated to be possible, when that testimony is more easily explained in other ways (e.g. religious fervor, psychosis, etc.), has no evidentiary weight. If someone tells me out at sea that he can see a container ship flying above the horizon, I do not take this as evidence that container ships can defy gravity. I take it as evidence that the person reporting this phenomenon doesn't know about that kind of mirage.

Now, in the case of eyewitness testimony about God, I can name some very specific reasons why I might mistrust it. Just because eyewitness testimony is not, in general, automatically invalid does not mean that it is automatically valid. But the point is one of relative credibility and reliability, not of (in legal terms) "admissibility."

That would be a significant statement if I had said that all eyewitness testimony was "inadmissible." Given that I didn't, I don't know what your point is.

I can claim to have spoken to my department chair today and no one sensible will question it. I can claim to have spoken to God and no one sensible will do anything but. But that illustrates that the key differences is not in the nature of the claim that I make -- eyewitness testimony of personal experience is fine. The key difference is that between God and my department chair(*).

And isn't this precisely what I said? It begins to appear you just misunderstood me. I never made a general attack on eyewitness testimony. I made a specific attack on the evidentiary weight of eyewitness testimony of the divine. If you agree that eyewitness testimony of the divine has no evidentiary weight, while eyewitness testimony of the mundane (if your chair will excuse the lese majeste for a moment) can have, then we're in agreement.

(*) Of course, the real distinction is that "God doesn't think He's my department chair."

Quite.
 
I apologise to all for the “closed mind” comment, which was meant as “closed mind as far as God is concerned” – I now realise, from the replies received, that even this is incorrect.

That may be the first time I have ever seen anyone admit that mistake. well done.

So why did I bother raising the issue in the first place? Well I have a confession to make.

On joining this forum, one of the first threads was from someone who must have had one those moments – one of those moments when you step back and look at the world around you and wonder “How is all this possible? How am I here? Why am I here?”
He (she) then had the audacity to post a message suggesting that there may be a grand design to it all. The replies, I felt, were quite aggressive and I felt quite sorry for this person.

What thread are you referring to? I would like to read it to verify your account is accurate.

Then I saw (didn’t read, perhaps I should have) a thread posing the question “Does skepticism make you smarter?”

Here is my confession for which I most sincerely apologise. I thought “What an arrogant bunch!”

Interestingly enough, I believe the adhom of "what an arrogant bunch" is thrown around alot between believers and non-believers. In both cases it is an overgeneralization and not anything that constructively addresses anything. However, it is easy to throw that label around. I have done it.

I have often pondered the existence of God and thought this a good way to find out a little about you all. If I met with aggression, I would say my goodbyes and be off.

So just to get this straight, after reading this forum you decided to post what you percieve as a contrary position fully expecting a flame war? This sounds alot like behavior of someone looking to have martyr status. I'm not trying to insult you but there have been several examples of posters on this forum who clearly enjoy and revel in the fact that they can stir the pot so to speak. Go read certain believer's posts, and you'll notice a distinct air of expectant martyrdom. They simply look to either preach or insult themselves into a position of being able to claim persecution. This behavior also happens on both sides. I chalk it up to the theory that some people just thrive on being a trainwreck.

Now I have read your replies, which (except one) were polite, informed, intelligent and well presented. No hint of arrogance or aggression. Just sensible discussion and arguments. Sometimes passive and, other times, with forceful opinion. Perfect!

Most people that come to this forum in the way you have will be treated as they act. Thoughtful and polite begets thoughtful and polite here. Insult and preachy returns that response as well.

P.P.S. So why the two A4 pages? Well I got drawn in by lively debate and really wanted to present valid argument and impress you. But I couldn't counter without delving into areas of faith and belief. And I wouldn't impress you with that!

You seem to have a focus of how we percieve you. You repeatedly express you hope we don't think bad of you or that your delving into matters of faith and belief wouldn't "impress" us. I think you may be missing the point that what impresses us (well ok, what impresses me - I can't speak for the entire forum) is thoughtful discourse. There are many believers on this forum that are very well respected (look up Roadtoad, KittyNH to start, but there are many others as well) and the reason why they are a respected member of this community is the ability to discuss and interact and disagree if neccessary without the need to belittle, insult, preach or condescend. You have not done any of those, so why would you assume we would think ill of you?

Welcome to the forum. If you would like, I would be happy to enter into a discussion and even disagreement with you, assuming we are to do so with the intention of rational and polite discourse. I think this is a practice long lost among many believers and non-believers alike. In an age of mega-extreme-reality TV-X Games-Jackass-Shock and awe media many people seem to have forgotten how to work to discuss things without imflaming and insulting.
 
I can claim to have spoken to my department chair today and no one sensible will question it. I can claim to have spoken to God and no one sensible will do anything but.

Actually, people claim to speak to their god(s) all the time. In general, we only become concerned when someone claims their god(s) spoke to them.
 
That may be the first time I have ever seen anyone admit that mistake. well done.



What thread are you referring to? I would like to read it to verify your account is accurate.



Interestingly enough, I believe the adhom of "what an arrogant bunch" is thrown around alot between believers and non-believers. In both cases it is an overgeneralization and not anything that constructively addresses anything. However, it is easy to throw that label around. I have done it.



So just to get this straight, after reading this forum you decided to post what you percieve as a contrary position fully expecting a flame war? This sounds alot like behavior of someone looking to have martyr status. I'm not trying to insult you but there have been several examples of posters on this forum who clearly enjoy and revel in the fact that they can stir the pot so to speak. Go read certain believer's posts, and you'll notice a distinct air of expectant martyrdom. They simply look to either preach or insult themselves into a position of being able to claim persecution. This behavior also happens on both sides. I chalk it up to the theory that some people just thrive on being a trainwreck.



Most people that come to this forum in the way you have will be treated as they act. Thoughtful and polite begets thoughtful and polite here. Insult and preachy returns that response as well.



You seem to have a focus of how we percieve you. You repeatedly express you hope we don't think bad of you or that your delving into matters of faith and belief wouldn't "impress" us. I think you may be missing the point that what impresses us (well ok, what impresses me - I can't speak for the entire forum) is thoughtful discourse. There are many believers on this forum that are very well respected (look up Roadtoad, KittyNH to start, but there are many others as well) and the reason why they are a respected member of this community is the ability to discuss and interact and disagree if neccessary without the need to belittle, insult, preach or condescend. You have not done any of those, so why would you assume we would think ill of you?

Welcome to the forum. If you would like, I would be happy to enter into a discussion and even disagreement with you, assuming we are to do so with the intention of rational and polite discourse. I think this is a practice long lost among many believers and non-believers alike. In an age of mega-extreme-reality TV-X Games-Jackass-Shock and awe media many people seem to have forgotten how to work to discuss things without imflaming and insulting.


Well said fowlsound.

...and who doesn't love Kelly (another forum member of faith)
 
Hi Karl

I have noticed that in my short time of being here that there is a strong anti-God attitude, which to me does not suggest scepticism but closed minds.

There are all sorts of people here. Some are open-minded, some aren't. Some of the closed-minded people are atheists, some aren't. This is actually quite a diverse board.

Surely, the existence of God is just as believable as something being created from nothing.[/SIZE][/FONT]

It’s easy to accept that life can form on a barren rock but not God creating life.

Depends what you mean by "create". You might mean "magicked ex nihilo in seven days". You might mean "fiddled with evolution". You might mean something else entirely.


I propose to this forum that God exists and created life, the universe and everything.

How did He do it?

1> God always existed and there was never a time when God did not exist.

What if God isn't temporal at all?

2> I’m not saying God created fossils or anything like that. God created evolution.

How? Why?

3> The big bang itself had something to do with God.

What?

4> The theory that simple life forms first and then becomes complex does not hold water – to me anyway. All life is complex. Hurricanes, scrap and airplanes.

There are widely varying degrees of complexity. If you do not believe that, you don't know anything at all about biology. And what is the point in claiming that simple things don't become complex and also claiming God created us via evolution? You can't just claim God twiddled the mutations if you are going to deny simple things leading to complex ones. You are also going to need a completely new theory of geology.

7> I never once said that God watches over us and cares what we do.

Do you believe He might?

10> I know you are but what am I?

Ditto.
 
But if a patient showed up in your office (assuming you're the doctor) and said "I've been up vomiting all night; it has never happened to me before, but I assume I ate something I am allergic to" you'd be a fool to lend any more weight to the allergy theory than to any other possible reason for the symptoms presented.

Simply put -- no.

Not only would you not be a fool, but if it were documented that you dismissed the patient's ideas out of hand, you'd be setting yourself up for a malpractice suit and possible loss of licensure.

Because regardless of whether or not the patient knows anything about medicine, he knows more about his own body than you do, and you should take advantage of his first-hand knowledge, including exploring the symptoms of allergy in detail with him.

I don't know how much farther to take this discussion. Your opinion of epistemology bears no apparent relationship to reality, to philosophy, or to science.
 
Not to gang up on you, Yoink, but... :)

Oh, go ahead. So far it all seems to be a case of misreading my argument.

First of all, there are tons of literature supposedly describing firsthand witnessing of the acts of the Christian God and other related miracles. (Then you have all those other religions as well. :)) So your citing of personal testimony from believers as the supposed evidence is far too limited in scope.

How is written personal testimony different from, well, "personal testimony"? Or is the distinction you are drawing between "God spoke to me" and "I saw God smite the evil heathen"?

The problem here is that you may well have seen the evil heathen being smitten, but your testimony that what you saw was necessarily divine is what remains merely a matter of personal conviction. I.E., it wasn't a natural occurance that you misperceived. It wasn't an hallucination etc. etc. There are always alternative non-divine explanations, so in the end all the testimony boils down to "nu-uh, this was God" (or Vishnu or FSM or whatever). So we can pretty safely reduce the evidence to claims of personal conviction (unless there's some actual, independently verifiable miracle you'd care to bring into the argument).

Secondly - if you tell your doctor you have shingles, I suspect that the first thing a competent physician will do is assess you to either confirm or eliminate that possiblity first. Your interpretation of your symptoms may be in error, but the anecdotal evidence provided by your claim has value. :)

Here you make the same mistake as drkitten. You assume I'm saying that "all statements made to a doctor are worthless." They're not, of course. If I say "I have shingles" and the doctor asks "so, have you had it before, or has someone you know had it" and I say "yes." Then my statement is useful to her. She can say "so, what was it about the cases of shingles you've observed in the past that seems similar to what you're experiencing now?" In this case I become just like the "expert witness" in drkitten's original reply. My statement has weight because I can show a train of reasoning that gets me from certain symptoms to a given conclusion.

But you have to assume that train of reasoning to lodge your objection. The example I gave was a bare statement. "Dr. I have shingles." Now, the Dr in this case is likely to assume some such train of reasoning behind this (saw something about shingles on TV, have had it before, etc.), but until that is established the statement based on the bare fact of testimony alone is useless. It has in itself no evidentiary weight whatsoever. Given that the only antecendents to the personal testimony of the divine that would matter are evidence of the divine we can only give evidentiary weight to such testimony by begging the question. Do you see?

Personal testimony of the divine is equivalent to telling the doctor "I feel absolutely fine, but I need to have my blood chelated because I just know that it is full of toxins." In no way can this claim be taken as evidence that there are, in fact, "toxins" in the patient's blood, or that chelation would be a useful approach to treating the condition.

There is a line between "no evidence" and "poor evidence"... and the line, as you put it, is a very hard one. However, your "line" is far too absolute; you would have to provide proof that the centuries (in some religions, millennia) of anecdotal evidence was wrong or misinterpreted in order to simply dismiss it.

I don't understand why you think multiplying statement's of no evidentiary weight somehow adds to that weight. Centuries of people believed the sun rotates around the earth. That doesn't make it so, nor does it make their "but look, see?" claims have evidentiary weight on the question. I think you're conflating a claim I'm not making ("these statements are meaningless") with a claim that I am making ("these statements can add no logical weight whatsoever to any argument about God's existence--they are not 'evidence' for that argument"). The statements tell us all sorts of things about the individuals making them, about the cultures from which they come etc. etc. They are "evidence" in that case. But they add not a jot of weight to any argument about the existence of God (or gods). Because in order for them to do so, the existence of God would have to first be demonstrated.

Sorry, Yoink, but the rules of logic that govern skepticism cut both ways. :)

Yep, they sure do. I don't see that you've shown that they affect my argument in the slightest, however.
 
Also Karl, this board has many on it that find amusingly creative ways to argue essentially the same point to each other as though they were in disagreement.

When that happens, I reccommend popcorn. With extra butter.
 
Simply put -- no.

Not only would you not be a fool, but if it were documented that you dismissed the patient's ideas out of hand, you'd be setting yourself up for a malpractice suit and possible loss of licensure.

Because regardless of whether or not the patient knows anything about medicine, he knows more about his own body than you do, and you should take advantage of his first-hand knowledge, including exploring the symptoms of allergy in detail with him.

Again, you attribute to me an absurd position that I did not argue in order to try to look like you have an argument.

I did not say "you would then ignore the patient's opinions." Clearly you would say, "well, tell me what makes you think it was an allergy. What symptoms do you have? What did you eat?" etc. etc. The patient--I have already said--is an expert in the patient's own feelings. When the patient makes a mistake, however, in substituting an unwarrented conclusion for an account of the evidence that leads to that conclusion the patient is making a statement that has no evidentiary weight whatsoever.

Even to stick to the "allergy" example is misleading, however, because we all know that allergies do exist, and we all know that it is possible to have an allergic reaction to food--so at that level the patient is one-up on the person claiming personal knowledge of God.

Tell me, if a patient showed up in your clinic saying "I have been taken over by martians. They have wormed their way into my body and are making me feel sick." Would you consider it your bounden duty to pursue the "martian" hypothesis? Would you consider stripping the licence off a doctor who "failed" to thoroughly pursue the martian hypothesis? No, of course not. And why, might I ask? Well, because the personal testimony of the patient in this instance would have no evidentiary weight because "invasion by martian" has not been demonstrated to exist as a possible complaint.

Q.E.D.

I don't know how much farther to take this discussion. Your opinion of epistemology bears no apparent relationship to reality, to philosophy, or to science.

Why not indulge me by telling me why a true scientist would feel bound to go looking for martians in the above instance. That would be nice.
 
Hi Karl, welcome to the board. I can sooo relate to losing a long post and then the energy to start again. I have done it, or mysterious computer activities resulted in it many times.

Try again later, you'll feel more up to it. Besides, now you can add a response to my post as well.

My response:

I am one of the few atheists on the board who disagrees with the usual approach to "science can't test for god". There is a theoretical definition of a god that cannot be examined by science. That would be a god who either does not interact with the Universe, but is outside it or if inside doesn't interact with anything in the Universe; or, that would be a god who erases its tracks, constantly changing reality and our memories if we try to test for evidence of its existence.

But no gods described by man or in religious texts or beliefs are gods that do not interact with the Universe. According to every religion (except maybe the flying spaghetti god) the god or gods described do indeed interact with the Universe. Therefore, one should be able to detect a god and if you can detect it, science can investigate it.

It isn't just that there is no evidence of gods, there is a fair amount of evidence there isn't one.

Just taking the Christian god of the Bible, here are a few things supporting my position:
  • The Bible is full of errors which evidence clearly shows are errors and which is inconsistent with the description of the god of the Bible.
  • The Bible is full of inconsistencies which itself is inconsistent with the description of the god of the Bible.
  • The Bible contains no information which one would not expect to be there based on what the authors would have known at the time. In other words, there is no mention of the rest of the world, just the world of the people who wrote the Bible. There is no insight into the germ theory. In fact, there is more concern about washing one's feet than washing one's hands and so on.
  • A more reasonable explanation for religion exists. There are religions in every culture. These religions can be explained by the science of anthropology as part of human sociocultural evolution. Each group has no trouble concluding the other person's religion is merely mythological belief. Yet, the believer cannot see that their own beliefs are analogous.
  • The lives of believers cannot be distinguished from non-believers except for the religious beliefs. In other words, pain, suffering, tragedy, privilege, reward, good health, bad health are consistent across believers of all religions and with non-believers alike which is not consistent with the Bible's description nor satisfactorily explained away with the usual excuse of, "we don't know why, but God has a plan", "we as humans cannot understand what God's reasons are", "God is testing our faith" and so on. None of these explanations pass any tests of logic, and they are not consistent with what the Bible says.
  • As far as supposed witnessed miracles Jesus performed, if there was a Jesus and if the events occurred as described, (because there is little additional evidence of Jesus outside of the New Testament Books), that goes on today and in every case can be shown to be tricks. So it follows people could have easily been deceived 2,000 years ago into believing a miracle had occurred which had really been a mere trick
  • And finally, research which provides evidence prayer has an effect, while claimed by many believers to exist, doesn't as far as I know and I have searched for such research as well as chased down the supposed citations when they were given. There is some evidence there is a benefit to one's health to belong to a church, but there is an equal benefit being in any social group. The few people who have had documented spontaneous remissions cannot be shown to be more than coincidental to being prayed for or praying for one's self. Spontaneous remissions occur for as yet unknown reasons. They are extremely rare in cases of cancer or other diseases not known to typically resolve, but spontaneous remissions do occur and miracles of god are not needed to explain them.
 

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