Is College Bull****? I think it is.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

1.College can be extremely useful to the education of some people

Agree

2.Self-taught people (people who didn't attend college) can also reach the same level of ability in a discipline as those who did.

Agree (In most cases)

3. College is a much more cost-effective option of obtaining the necessary ability in certain disciplines

Agree

In "certain disciplines" such as those mentioned where there is no other way to practice or get the info than by going to college where limitations exist on machines you can use or material you can use such as hardware or prohibited chemicals.

However if changes were made, I think institutions could exist where people could have access to these things without going through the whole process of college.

4. Some people finish college without having furthered their education any more than they could have acheived without going.

Agree

5. Some people finish college having furthered their education more than than they could have acheived by going.

Agree

Remember it's individual specific. Some aren't smart enough to teach themselves. Some are.

6. A degree is not the only indicator of ability in an a discipline area, and is not an infallible standard of comparison, but it is, on average, a good guide to a person's a) ability in their discipline b) a person's work ethic/ability in general (re: teek's post, along with everyone else who has been telling you the same thing over and over again).

Agree

It is a 'fairly good' indicator of their ability and work ethic.

However as I've said over and over again there are and could be even more means to determine someones work ethic and ability or skills than simply attending college and learning them.

My argument is that..

• College shouldn't be the only means of following various career choices.
• People should not discriminate based on educational history but based on skill level and intelligence.
• In America the educational system is in shambles and many colleges are cesspools for over qualified under skilled monkeys.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Cop out.

Childish.

Poor baby.

You're new.

Read the rules to the forum.


The only thing childish is resorting to insults.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Is this whole thread just a case of Dustin using the odd 'exception to the rule' as justification for his position?

I mean seriously...

Dustin: "College is bull****!"
Poster: "Erm, not in general...here's why it is useful"
Dustin: "No, no, in this case it isn't"
Poster: "Maybe so, but in all these cases it is"
Dustin: "I've already refuted that"

If you would have actually been reading my posts you would know that isn't the case.

I have stated several times in this thread that college is useful for many people. I made it clear in the FIRST POST that college has a good purpose.

 

[CFLarsen]

BTW the costs mentioned by Larson don't even include room & Board or other charges. When adding all of those charges up the price of college nearly doubles.

Ooooohhhh....but you didn't include those costs at first. Moving the goalposts.

So I'm done responding to any of his posts in this thread.

I can understand why.

 

[Katana]

You're new.

Read the rules to the forum.


The only thing childish is resorting to insults.

 

[alfaniner]

No....Aside from 5 years of Boxing experience.

So, you started when you were 9, then?

 

[DreadNiK]

Agree




Agree (In most cases)



Agree

In "certain disciplines" such as those mentioned where there is no other way to practice or get the info than by going to college where limitations exist on machines you can use or material you can use such as hardware or prohibited chemicals.

However if changes were made, I think institutions could exist where people could have access to these things without going through the whole process of college.



Agree



Agree

Remember it's individual specific. Some aren't smart enough to teach themselves. Some are.



Agree

It is a 'fairly good' indicator of their ability and work ethic.

However as I've said over and over again there are and could be even more means to determine someones work ethic and ability or skills than simply attending college and learning them.

My argument is that..

• College shouldn't be the only means of following various career choices.
• People should not discriminate based on educational history but based on skill level and intelligence.
• In America the educational system is in shambles and many colleges are cesspools for over qualified under skilled monkeys.

Thank you for that response...

"College shouldn't be the only means of following various career choices." - Why not? It works, quite well, for those few careers that it is the only option

"People should not discriminate based on educational history but based on skill level and intelligence." - Well, the former is one (good) indicator of the latter. And I feel pretty certain that employers and otherwise do not solely base their hiring/judgements on educational/academic history, but rather use it as a (good) indicator.

"In America the educational system is in shambles and many colleges are cesspools for over qualified under skilled monkeys." Well, I'm from the UK, so if you were to switch 'America' for 'UK', I would say that it isn't as simple as that. Sure, our education system fails a lot of people that it shouldn't. Sure, many of our universities result in stupid people having meaningless degrees. But on the other hand, lots of people get a lot out of the education system as it stand...newsflash - life isn't perfect or fair...

 

[DreadNiK]

Ooooohhhh....but you didn't include those costs at first. Moving the goalposts.

Yes, but not an unreasonable place to put the goalposts.

 

[Walk The Line]

If you would have actually been reading my posts you would know that isn't the case.

I have stated several times in this thread that college is useful for many people. I made it clear in the FIRST POST that college has a good purpose.

Actually, in your first post, you said the following:

This is just the main problem with college and it’s impact on our society. Other problems include colleges themselves . Many colleges don’t even adequately teach students or educate them. Many colleges simply con students out of their money and the end result is the students not being any more intelligent or having anymore knowledge than when they first entered college.

Emphasis added for dramatic purposes.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

So, you started when you were 9, then?

No.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Thank you for that response...

"College shouldn't be the only means of following various career choices." - Why not? It works, quite well, for those few careers that it is the only option

"People should not discriminate based on educational history but based on skill level and intelligence." - Well, the former is one (good) indicator of the latter. And I feel pretty certain that employers and otherwise do not solely base their hiring/judgements on educational/academic history, but rather use it as a (good) indicator.

"In America the educational system is in shambles and many colleges are cesspools for over qualified under skilled monkeys." Well, I'm from the UK, so if you were to switch 'America' for 'UK', I would say that it isn't as simple as that. Sure, our education system fails a lot of people that it shouldn't. Sure, many of our universities result in stupid people having meaningless degrees. But on the other hand, lots of people get a lot out of the education system as it stand...newsflash - life isn't perfect or fair...

Just because a specific system works for a lot of people doesn't mean it should have some kind of monopoly on the entire field.

Just because college is a fairly good means to determine skill doesn't mean it should be the ONLY means of doing so.

Sure..Employeers should see college as a plus. But they should also not discriminate against those who didn't go to college because they could easily have the same skills as someone who went.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Actually, in your first post, you said the following:



Emphasis added for dramatic purposes.

And it's true. Many(not all) colleges waste money and provide inadequate teaching. I would call that a "con".

 

[tkingdoll]

Sure..Employeers should see college as a plus. But they should also not discriminate against those who didn't go to college because they could easily have the same skills as someone who went.

But how does the person who didn't go to college prove they have those skills? A degree says such a lot about a person's learning discipline - how would you go about demonstrating that you have a track record in applying new knowledge? Isn't the simplest way to go and get a degree?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

But how does the person who didn't go to college prove they have those skills? A degree says such a lot about a person's learning discipline - how would you go about demonstrating that you have a track record in applying new knowledge? Isn't the simplest way to go and get a degree?

I've explained this numerous times in this thread already.

 

[senorpogo]

Just because a specific system works for a lot of people doesn't mean it should have some kind of monopoly on the entire field.

I've read the thread, but maybe I missed this important piece of the puzzle.

How, exactly, do colleges have a monopoly on the entire system? Outside of several disciplines where you're required to gain accreditation by the government - which really isn't the college's decision - how do colleges force people to go to them? Also, we've seen several examples - Teek for one - where non-college graduates have proven that success is not controlled or policed by a collegiate monopoly.

If there isn't such a monopoly, then what's the point of complaining about the way college do things? If you don't like it, or think it costs too much, then you can go the self-made route of Teek, Einstein, and Walt Disney.

 

[Walk The Line]

Sure..Employeers should see college as a plus. But they should also not discriminate against those who didn't go to college because they could easily have the same skills as someone who went.

I fail to see why it is a bad thing for employers to discriminate based on education/skills.

Shouldn't it be up to the business to decide who is best for the position?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I've read the thread, but maybe I missed this important piece of the puzzle.

How, exactly, do colleges have a monopoly on the entire system? Outside of several disciplines where you're required to gain accreditation by the government - which really isn't the college's decision - how do colleges force people to go to them? Also, we've seen several examples - Teek for one - where non-college graduates have proven that success is not controlled or policed by a collegiate monopoly.

If there isn't such a monopoly, then what's the point of complaining about the way college do things? If you don't like it, or think it costs too much, then you can go the self-made route of Teek, Einstein, and Walt Disney.

When I say monopoly I don't mean to imply the college's are responsible for govt policy. But it's still the case.

Also, If I think college costs too much why don't I do what Einstein or Walt Disney did? Probably because I’m probably not that smart. I am one of those who needs to attend college. So I criticize the way they waste money and cost too much.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I fail to see why it is a bad thing for employers to discriminate based on education/skills.

Shouldn't it be up to the business to decide who is best for the position?

I said it's a bad thing to discriminate against those who lack college education. Not those who lack 'skills'. You can have skills without a college education.


Shouldn't the business decide whom to hire? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's not a bad thing to discriminate against those without college degrees.

Just like they should have the right to discriminate against race or sex. That however doesn't make it 'right' or 'moral' or even effective.

 

[Walk The Line]

So I criticize the way they waste money and cost too much.

Could you be a bit more specific and explain which colleges are wasting money and what better uses that money can be devoted to?

 

[CFLarsen]

When I say monopoly I don't mean to imply the college's are responsible for govt policy. But it's still the case.

Also, If I think college costs too much why don't I do what Einstein or Walt Disney did? Probably because I’m probably not that smart. I am one of those who needs to attend college. So I criticize the way they waste money and cost too much.

You are not that smart, yet you can write scientific papers?