Is College Bull****? I think it is.

[drkitten]

I put to you that they wouldn't typically introduce even velocities and accelerations as being time derivatives of position. You just have to accept:

x(t) = x₀ + v₀t + (1/2)at²

Actually, even introducting the idea of "time-derivatives of positions" isn't that demanding, as long as you don't insist that students be able to manipulate the derivatives themselves. Calculus is easy conceptually if you don't need to work the damn sums yourself.

Define the concepts of "velocity" and "acceleration" in terms of "rates of change" -- you don't even need the term "derivative." The experiment you define above can be demonstrated empirically to justify using it. From there, you've got everything you need.

 

[Jimbo07]

Okay. Pretending for a moment that this guy had a genuine interest in learning, but lacked freshman-level calculus, how would you teach him that the definitions of momentum and energy are not arbitrary?

I once had the pleasure of seeing a prof. teaching a general freshman physics class (which had nothing to do with my current engineering education, btw), pounding his fist on the workbench and screaming, '(1/2)kx²! (1/2)kx²!' His assertion was that a bunch of 'artsy' students shouldn't be trying to reason this stuff out, but be memorizing basic formulas. The 'memorize forumlas' approach is highly favoured in engineering where many of the freshman students won't be going on to more advanced mechanics.

 

[drkitten]

Okay. Pretending for a moment that this guy had a genuine interest in learning, but lacked freshman-level calculus, how would you teach him that the definitions of momentum and energy are not arbitrary?

I'm a firm believer in demonstrations. Showing him that momentum is conserved in collisions when kinetic energy isn't (e.g. inelastic ones) should help him realize that the topics are different.

Showing him how potential energy converts to kinetic energy -- I've seen really neat setups with springs that do this -- and the conservation laws should help him realize that energy is energy.

Then get a video camera or a radar gun and show him the (1/2)kx² in action on a moving particle. Get a moving particle of twice as much energy, and show him that it's not, in fact, moving twice as fast.

I

 

[Jimbo07]

I'm a firm believer in demonstrations. Showing him that momentum is conserved in collisions when kinetic energy isn't (e.g. inelastic ones) should help him realize that the topics are different.

Which is part of why laboratory sessions are conducted, I suppose (that, and according to my peers who have already been markers, to start sorting out some of the crap that passes for high-school lab reports).

Showing him how potential energy converts to kinetic energy -- I've seen really neat setups with springs that do this -- and the conservation laws should help him realize that energy is energy.

At a guest lecture last year we saw a really cool apparatus for demoing some basics of GR. The guy had put together what was essentially a round black small portable trampoline. He could then put a large ball in the middle to deform 'space' and toss marbles around it at varying speeds to examine what happened. No doubt, demos are appealing.

Then get a video camera or a radar gun and show him the (1/2)kx² in action on a moving particle. Get a moving particle of twice as much energy, and show him that it's not, in fact, moving twice as fast.

I think a spring apparatus is probably well suited, because the system will oscillate while the discussion takes place.

However, I'd imagine (thinking back for myself, anyway) that some people have to make a conceptual leap to link the equations to the cool moving stuff. This guy hasn't seemed to make that leap. He doesn't stand a chance of knowing how the heat equation can lead to predictions of inversions at certain depths (I barely do ), even though these are observable physical phenomena.

 

[drkitten]

I think a spring apparatus is probably well suited, because the system will oscillate while the discussion takes place.

However, I'd imagine (thinking back for myself, anyway) that some people have to make a conceptual leap to link the equations to the cool moving stuff.

Well, I'm not sure he needs to be able to link the equations to the cool moving stuff to understand that his ideas are gibberish. All you need to do -- but it's a mandatory first step -- is to shatter his misconceptions that energy and momentum are interchangeable. Show him that they aren't. Then you can start trying to make links.

But the most important thing here isn't what he doesn't know. It's what he thinks he knows....

 

[wolfgirl]

1. MY english skill is adequate for most positions.
2. It was a fallacy to point out my spelling errors.
3. He made just as many errors.

He did not make just as many errors as you did. You made many more errors. And his were obviously typos as opposed to actual spelling errors like using "it's" when you meant "its" or "who's" when it should have been "whose" or "kidabers" instead of "cadavers."

These things do matter to a lot of people. As they should.

 

[Questioninggeller]

However wouldn't you agree that college being used as the sole gauge to determine skill or intelligence in many specialized trades is absurd?

I don't think anyone will make the claim that it is the sole gauge. Many different elements are taken into consideration for "trades;" personality, experience, ability, etc.

Penn & Teller actually did a show making all of the points I made and more in their series "********".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7427067542845351261&q=penn+and+teller+********

Most people here are Bullsh!t fans, and have seen that episode. One thing I didn't like was they put public approval of entertainers as a measurement of success. Being intelligent, school or not, has intrinsic value, and they failed to present people of academic intelligence outside of academia. In fact, I laughed at their examples (if I remember correctly rapper Eminem was one). People like James Randi, while not formally college educated, have had a lot of help (expertise, editing, proof reading, and such) in his work and learning. His relationships with academic allies have encouraged a broad understanding of different fields beyond what the average self taught person has available.

The libertarian stance of the show got in the way of premise. Aristotle believed intelligence was having compassion because intelligence is in understanding someone else's perspective. College has a tendency to teach that more often than someone who is an avid self-learner. That is, someone self taught (an autodidactic) will likely read things they are interested in and will have a narrowed field of knowledge. College forces people to read outside their perspective introducing a much more liberal view of the world.

 

[wolfgirl]

Grants and Loans? Ha! Have you ever tried getting a college scholarship or grant in America? I have. And trust me...It's near impossible unless you're black or have had perfect grades in highschool.

I'm not black, and I attended a fairly expensive private college, paid for exclusively through a combination of loans, grants, scholarships and work-study. Granted, this was over 20 years ago, but still...

Loans are a bad choice unless you KNOW you will be making alot of money right out of college. Which generally is NOT the case. The federal loan interest rate in America is over 3%.

It took me several years to pay off my student loans, and I've NEVER made "alot of money" (or even "a lot of money"). But I was making more than I would've without the degree, so it still worked out better. Then once they were paid off, the rest was gravy!

 

[Almo]

Eminem is a really sharp dude. Yeah, his rap can be rather vulgar. But he is very skilled in his field. And at times he makes quite insightful statements.

This is also true of Ice-T, who also appears to me to be a rather intelligent fellow.

 

[wolfgirl]

Aristotle believed intelligence was having compassion because intelligence is in understanding someone else's perspective. College has a tendenecy to teach that more often than someone who is an avid self-learner. That is a someone self taught (an autodidactic) will likely read things they are interested in. College forces people to read outside their perspective introducing a much more liberal view of the world.

I remember telling my kids that the "universal" part of "university" meant that they would come away with a more well-rounded view of the world. Not ony do you learn a specific field or trade, but you also have to take courses in things like art and literature, science and math, philosophy, history, etc. I enjoy being able to talk intelligently with other people about Homer's Iliad or the differences between Monet and Manet. And yes, I could've learned those things without going to college, but would I have?

 

[tkingdoll]

Have I got this right? Dustin disagrees with something his dermatologist said, therefore college education is useless?

Or is it Dustin disagrees with something his dermatologist said, therefore college education is no better than reading Wikipedia?

 

[Jimbo07]

Well, I'm not sure he needs to be able to link the equations to the cool moving stuff to understand that his ideas are gibberish. All you need to do -- but it's a mandatory first step -- is to shatter his misconceptions that energy and momentum are interchangeable. Show him that they aren't. Then you can start trying to make links.

See, getting into his motivations will probably get me into trouble, because I don't know him.

I thought his problems stemmed from pencil-and-paper work (or lack thereof), and not observations. His part 1 makes no sense. Apparently, he did the work to find out that for inverse values for mass and height, you can get similar potential energies, but If he had simply written:

mg(h₂ - h₁) = (1/2)m(v₂ - v₁)²
couldn't he have seen that v has to change with changing h? Couldn't he see that kinetic energy has to be (1/2)mv² for the units to work out?! Couldn't he see that to balance, mgh does not = mv? Unless, of course, "physicists get around that problem by referring to force as potential energy."

...

Anyway, I assumed that experiment and demonstration weren't even in the picture here.

 

[slingblade]

Colleges cost TOO MUCH money and their methods of teaching are becoming more and more degenerated and ineffective. (Atleast in America)

You think $1600/semester is too much to pay? Wow.

Secondly...Grants and Loans? Ha! Have you ever tried getting a college scholarship or grant in America? I have. And trust me...It's near impossible unless you're black or have had perfect grades in highschool.

I'm whiter than you, probably, and I'm still getting plenty of grants. In fact, this semester my student funds are made up primarily of grants.

PELL AWARD
$600.00

(STATE) STUDENT GRANT L2
$750.00

SUBSIDIZED STAFFORD LOAN
$294.00

SOF TUITION VOUCHER
$1,032.00



No, I didn't have perfect grades in high school; far from it. Besides, high school was 1977 for me. I seriously doubt they took one look at my transcripts.

You are so wrong. So very, very wrong. And your English skills could use a serious amount of work. Stay off Wikipedia; you don't have the skills for it, and I don't feel like reading your mistakes.

Kidabers? KIDABERS?

 

[brodski]

Have I got this right? Dustin disagrees with something his dermatologist said, therefore college education is useless?

Or is it Dustin disagrees with something his dermatologist said, therefore college education is no better than reading Wikipedia?

Kind of, his point seems to be that regulations which prescribe specific educational paths don't guarantee perfect quality control, or infallible knowledge from professionals, therefore micro-Fascist's forcing doctors and lawyers to have degrees is evil, and (I guessing here) in libertopia everything will be fro the best, in the best of all possible worlds.

 

[Iamme]

This is very interesting... and I see ol Dustin is getting raked over the coals in a similar way *I* would if I had brought up such a novel idea.

That said...don't any of you see a similarity here between this and home schooling? Isn't home schooling known to be very successful in the cases where the student actually WANTS to learn and can do so at their pace?

The reason authority wants people licensed is so that there can be a level of competency assured where the inspector does not have to inspect every aspect of the person's work. But I think what Dustin is hoping for is a system where the books aspect of learning trades or professions such as medical can be gotten on one's own, at their own pace, and then the person is tested, in the way college students are tested, and if you pass, you then are allowed to move on to hands on apprenticeships and internships.

It does indeed seem that such a strategy could be possible, and less costly individually and for the taxpayers.

 

[EBU]

Here is a program that allows you to get credit for what you learned (maybe, as Dustin says, by going to the library) without going to college.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/about.html

Of course, this does involve actually going to college at some point, if you want an actual college degree. But it does seem to be at least a close approximation of what Dustin says he wants.

 

[fuelair]

I've always wondered about College and what exactly its point is. There are several things that really don't make sense about College and most people’s view of College and it's adequacy.

For instance, Why in our society is it impossible to become a doctor or lawyer without a college education? Discuss.

No matter what you can demonstrate, if you "educated yourself" no one with expertise has been evaluating at every level of your assumed training how well you assimilated that training and how well you applied it - or, what you skipped because you didn't realize- or believe- it was important to being a doctor. The amount of time needed to evaluate your real knowledge and capabilities would be some similar to the time required for you to go to med school where that would have been continuously occuring. If, by demonstrating your ability you actually think a written test or two combined with a little demo of your cutting skills would be enough to allow any competant physician to say "Hey, I'm impressed, let's give him the old sheepskin and turn him loose on patients right now!!!" you are seriously deluded (or planning to practice medicine in the back hills of a third world country).
(I am not usually a college teacher, but I have had surgery. So.........)

 

[Rob Lister]

After reading every other page of this thread, I beg you all to leave Dustin alone.

I know it is unlikely but he may well take some of your well-put advice to heart and go to college...

and become a doctor...

THEN we have REAL problems.

 

[Bob Klase]

Wow... who hasn't done the math?!?

That 3% is tax deductable... so subtract a third for 2%.... 2% fixed minus inflation IS LESS THAN 0%! It's a PROFITABLE LOAN WITHOUT COLLATERAL!

If Dustin really thinks 3% too much I'll gladly pay him 3% interest if he'll loan me the balance on my mortgage.

 

[Tricky]

Dustin, I highly recommend you do what I did for college: Enter the Co-operative Education program. You work every other semester in the "real world" in a field related to the subject you are studying. You can pay for each semester (or most of it) with the money from your work. It takes a little while longer (It took me 6 years to get a 4-year degree) but it is well worth it in experience and also in not having a lot of loans to repay.

But I promise you that in the "real world" your college education is not a waste of time.