Loose Change - Part IV

[Sir Knight]

he says you cant just bring WMDs over in a suitcase, but the thing is....you can

the smallest nuke is a mere 50 pounds, chemical and biological weapons come in even smaller packages, theres no reason they couldnt arrange to find a vial of anthrax or sarin on saddam when they captured him

First of all you need to go back to the CLAIM. they claimed they were manufacturing stuff WMD. The factory and such would NOT fit into a suit case. And you are ablsolutely correct, it would be easy just to put someting over there but that wasn't the CLAIM was it? They would have had to show a factory of some kind which if I recall correctly they did attempt to claim certain things were proof of that but recanted later.
And to put one or two items around without any proof of it being made there would have been very suspicious considering we had CIA and other reports that claimed other things.

Anyway, this is just another example of talking before thinking. And I was talking like the GOV was talking WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION, and you are talking WEAPON of MASS DESTRUCTION. You are talking about ONE, and the GOV was talking about MANY. Check the old news clips and reports etc. I thought you guys would of done that already a long time ago. That is the problem with ABREVIATIONS, can't tell singular from plural somethings.

 

[Sir Knight]

I have asked him already how much he pays Patsy to bang the coconuts together, and he refuses to answer. I do not think he is a real Sir Knight at all.

Ok someone answer me this: How come this post isn't being bashed by someone because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MOVIE?

Get my point here?

 

[T.A.M.]

Sir Knight:

Don't forget it was you who came here. Noone asked you to. You came into a skeptics forum where the topic is Debunking the "Loose Change" video. You presented some arguments, and some people brought forward some evidence contrary to your views. Tempers flared a little, you took it personally.

If what you wanted was help, or someone you could trust, seems to me we gave you the forum addresses a long time ago of forums where they hold your views in high regard, and would embrace you and your views/opinions/evidence with open arms.

Yet you chose to stay here and argue, mostly about topics not related, at least in anyway you were willing to show, to 9/11.

But, noone here asked admin to kick you out. Like I said to you when I welcomed you, your views will be allowed, if not accepted.

Over at the LC boards, your views will be accepted, and embraced, unless they are contrary to theirs, in which case you will be Banned from their board.

I hope you get the answers and help that you seek.

T.A.M.

 

[gumboot]

and the people you are LEAVING OUT of the equation are more qualified and more informed than you are.

Are you saying the random person who posted a video on youtube and made some vague comments about it is more qualified than me to interpret video?

How do you know what my qualifications are? Do you even know what field I work in?

I certainly haven't told you.

What are the youtube guy's qualifications? Do you know him?

-Andrew

 

[T.A.M.]

an occasional light hearted joke is tolerated. And his comment is not trying to invoke argument or anger, least not that I can tell.

And he is not leading people by the chain, claiming to have extraordinary evidence, then not telling people here. And I think you were given alot of rope, in terms of what you said, before people started to ask you to come back to the topic of the forum.

 

[SRW]

Ok someone answer me this: How come this post isn't being bashed by someone because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MOVIE?

Get my point here?

Oh are you going to make a point? I have been killing time reading your BS waiting for you to make a point. At the very least explain why you will not answer Gravy. Stop wasting everyones time put up or shut up.

So How much do you pay Patsy?

 

[Sir Knight]

so you don't think that they could pull off planting a few simple chemical weapons over there, but you think they could pull off 9/11...that is illogical.

And as to what you seem to be indicating would be a lack of motive, for them, I disagree. Even though they, according to you, purposely lied to go there, you are then saying that they simply sucked it up and took it on the noggin with respect to public opinion, creating the worse numbers the administration has ever had, and putting their continuance of power in serious jeopardy, by way of likely losing to the Democrats in 2008 because of the war. They could have bolstered their approval, and avoided or at least minimized the affect on the polls and potential re-election, by simply planting a few chemical weapons here, a few there...It is simply illogical.

Seems to me that any group so obsessed with power over the people, and maintaining that power, would do everything they could to keep it, not jeopardize their future control by making themselves look horrible in the eyes of the public who elects or ejects them. A few little WMDs would have done it...and so easy to do...

Excuse me but read my other posts where I discuss the WDM's.

But to answer you on this point. even the best conspiracy, and they have been real ones that you know of, has problems here and there, there is a thing called DAMAGE CONTROL. And when things don't go perfect they have people that go in and clean things up with misinformation etc. Conspiracies are a risk but when you have plenty of money and quite a bit of power it appears they take the risks.

Somethings blow up in their faces and advisors aren't always right.

I am not saying these are GODS doing all this, just very misguided WANT TO BES.

You assume that everything always will go or has to go perfect before anyone would be involved in a conspiracy. That is funny and almost humorous, for I have plenty of evidence that shows they SCREW UP and tommorrow I will be sharing some of it with someone who knows REAL STUFF not your WISHFUL THINKING KIND OF STUFF.

The best laid plans oft go awry.

And this could have been much worse. Considering how many screw ups they did, I am amazed that we aren't having riots in the Capital. So all in all they did a pretty good job, not excellent, but pretty good. But time will tell if it is enough.

 

[T.A.M.]

Sir Knight:

For the govt to pull off 9/11, they would have had to have the power to have explosives planted in three buildings which were open to workers 24/7, over a period of weeks to months. They would have had the power to have a missile shot into the Pentagon, and not have it leak out. They would have had the power to set up remote controlled Drone Jet airliners, and also to collect over 200 passengers, and put them into witness protection, or worse murdered, and no word get out. They would have had the power to do all of this, and control any and all whistleblowers...yet you don't think this same NWO adminstration had the power to take a couple of big cargo planes over to Iraq, have a couple of dozen army personnel land somewhere in remote Iraq, set up a mock Chemical Weapons factory, and then leave...please man, be reasonable.

 

[gumboot]

They would have had to show a factory of some kind which if I recall correctly they did attempt to claim certain things were proof of that but recanted later.
And to put one or two items around without any proof of it being made there would have been very suspicious considering we had CIA and other reports that claimed other things.

They actually have found WMD in Iraq, just nothing that was new or recent - it has all been old stuff - 1990 era or earlier.

You do remember that Iraq DID have WMD right? This is not disputed. In fact the fact that they had them is written into International Law in the form of numerous UNSC Resolutions.

They also USED them against a number of people - including Iraqi Kurds, Iran, and Coalition Troops in Saudi Arabia.

The issue was never if there WERE WMD in Iraq. The issue was if Iraq was still making them!

It has become clear that they weren't, but that all the infrastructure for making them was still in place, and the intention was to continue once sanctions were lifted. It is also almost certain that the Iraqi scientists PRETENDED they were actually producing WMD to keep Saddam happy.

-Andrew

 

[Sir Knight]

an occasional light hearted joke is tolerated. And his comment is not trying to invoke argument or anger, least not that I can tell.

And he is not leading people by the chain, claiming to have extraordinary evidence, then not telling people here. And I think you were given alot of rope, in terms of what you said, before people started to ask you to come back to the topic of the forum.

I have NEVER claimed to have EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE, not once have I used that term. I have said FACTS, referred to things I have in my personal possession that proves a conspiracy involving the GOV, CIA etc.
I shall even include the COURT SYSTEM.

These are facts, which I have shown to many lawyers, none of which said I was crazy but many were too scared to do anything with it.

Not the first time this has happened. I have known about many conspiracies, and things just appear to get worse not better. They get bigger with time. I guess I am just that kind of magnet, I am lucky. LOL NOT!

And it isn't one piece of paper I have but boxes of stuff. One thing could be maufactured but all the tapes, papers, court documents and other things including pictures reports etc could not be done, well not by me anyway. There are people on here that hear some ring of truth in what I say and those people might get a shot at learning some things.

Being on here does not give me away nor does it change the facts.

I know what I have and in time maybe others will also but these are not things I could really put on the board that is why I am looking for people who might know how to help me and know what to do with what I do have. And in case you haven't noticed, which is more the case than not, I am trying to discuss the video and aspects of the video. You guys keep coming back and misquoting me and I have tried to move beyond that now.

 

[Sir Knight]

They actually have found WMD in Iraq, just nothing that was new or recent - it has all been old stuff - 1990 era or earlier.

You do remember that Iraq DID have WMD right? This is not disputed. In fact the fact that they had them is written into International Law in the form of numerous UNSC Resolutions.

They also USED them against a number of people - including Iraqi Kurds, Iran, and Coalition Troops in Saudi Arabia.

The issue was never if there WERE WMD in Iraq. The issue was if Iraq was still making them!

It has become clear that they weren't, but that all the infrastructure for making them was still in place, and the intention was to continue once sanctions were lifted. It is also almost certain that the Iraqi scientists PRETENDED they were actually producing WMD to keep Saddam happy.

-Andrew

Thanks for that logical and polite statement, and I agree, but that was not what was CLAIMED by the GOV and that is why they ended up taking it on the chin.

If the factories and infrastructure was still in place and they had the CAPABILITY to make stuff quickly then WHY would the GOV be looking so bad? Why did they need to make apologies? Because what they claimed to get us to allow them to go over there WAS NOT TRUE. It was a manufactured LIE for a sole purpose. And that is why they took it on the chin, once the cat was out of the bag.

 

[delphi_ote]

It is also almost certain that the Iraqi scientists PRETENDED they were actually producing WMD to keep Saddam happy.

Or that Saddam was trying to look tough to Iran after he disarmed. Who knows what was really going on inside that regime all those years? Hopefully, history will have some answers, because I think this will be an interesting story if the facts ever come in.

There's plenty to be upset about regarding the WMD problem. The international intelligence community was dead wrong about so many things. I don't understand why anyone would want to invent imaginary evils to pounce on when the reality is bad enough. America alone spends billions of dollars on an intelligence community. When we really needed good intelligence, they got it all wrong.

Instead of all that, Knight would prefer to live in his fantasy world where he's the target of death squads and CIA agents. I used to think these guys read too much Tom Clancey, but this spy story is too hack even for that guy.

 

[delphi_ote]

Thanks for that logical and polite statement, and I agree, but that was not what was CLAIMED by the GOV and that is why they ended up taking it on the chin.

If the factories and infrastructure was still in place and they had the CAPABILITY to make stuff quickly then WHY would the GOV be looking so bad? Why did they need to make apologies? Because what they claimed to get us to allow them to go over there WAS NOT TRUE. It was a manufactured LIE for a sole purpose. And that is why they took it on the chin, once the cat was out of the bag.

So rather than this elaborate scheme you've concocted, why didn't they just quickly build some fake WMD sites in the middle of the desert somewhere?

 

[JamesB]

Heh, in an amusing case of irony I got e-mail from Steven Jones informing me that I was violating academic ethics for submitting my rebuttal to Frank Legge's paper to his journal, because it was already published in our (somewhat satirical) Journal of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

Once again proving conclusively that by the "Scholars" standards the only prerequisite to be considered an "academic journal" is the ability to create a website.

Of course the other irony is that we actually have higher standards.

 

[gumboot]

If the factories and infrastructure was still in place and they had the CAPABILITY to make stuff quickly then WHY would the GOV be looking so bad?

Because the media has made them look bad because it sells more newspapers?

-Andrew

 

[Sir Knight]

Sir Knight:

For the govt to pull off 9/11, they would have had to have the power to have explosives planted in three buildings which were open to workers 24/7, over a period of weeks to months. They would have had the power to have a missile shot into the Pentagon, and not have it leak out. They would have had the power to set up remote controlled Drone Jet airliners, and also to collect over 200 passengers, and put them into witness protection, or worse murdered, and no word get out. They would have had the power to do all of this, and control any and all whistleblowers...yet you don't think this same NWO adminstration had the power to take a couple of big cargo planes over to Iraq, have a couple of dozen army personnel land somewhere in remote Iraq, set up a mock Chemical Weapons factory, and then leave...please man, be reasonable.

I am not sure why we are continuing this line of thought, there are FACTS, they made CLAIMS which were NOT true, we went over there UNDER THE DISGUISE of lies, the TRUTH came out, they somewhat apologized or made excuses. It didn't turn out the way they thought it was going to. And you are right, THEY COULD HAVE BUT DIDN'T, if you think our CIA buddies could NOT have done that you are dead wrong, THEY COULD AND HAVE DONE things just like that. They just didn't do it this time. Look, like I said they DO MESS UP, I never said it was the perfect conspiracy, far from it. But the are still in power anyway, so what is the point, did he get himself kicked out of office for it? NO.

And listen, find someone that REALLY worked in the CIA or WITH the CIA, they will tell you many things most of which you will not like, well that is if they tell you anything at all. I was once told by a CIA guy, and he was for real, that he couldn't tell me specifics for if he did he would have to kill me. He was not joking, didn't crack a smile or anything. He also told me about his first kill. I don't deal in BS, I have a lot of BS come my way, and not the kind you guys imply.

I am meeting with someone that used to work with the CIA tomorrow.

I like talking to real people, people who know what real stuff is and how things really work. You should really check out the CIA find out what they are capable of.

Good night

 

[Pardalis]

Because the media has made them look bad because it sells more newspapers?

-Andrew

Ah! So that's how they thought they'd get to cash in despite the high cost of the war: Bad press about themselves!

How cunningly evil!

 

[gumboot]

Or that Saddam was trying to look tough to Iran after he disarmed. Who knows what was really going on inside that regime all those years? Hopefully, history will have some answers, because I think this will be an interesting story if the facts ever come in.

I think it might be a bit of both. From the interviews I have read/seen with former/escaped Iraqi scientists who worked on the program, I think it's probably likely that Saddam genuinely thought he did have a viable WMD program still, and was using it to keep Iran down. The scientists, meanwhile, had experienced some thorough education in what disappointing Saddam led to, so they kept up the bluff.

Of course this is only a few testimonies of what was going on, and they are speculating on what Saddam knew.

There's plenty to be upset about regarding the WMD problem. The international intelligence community was dead wrong about so many things.

To be honest I think the greatest damage done by the whole affair is the United Nations. I think in the 10 years of sanctions and games with weapons inspectors that totally failed in their primary duties, and a unilateral invasion by the USA was simply the final nail in the UN coffin. The current hilarity with assembling a UN force for Lebanon may very well be the grave to toss the coffin into.

You're right though, of course. This is one thing that always astounds me. There's lots of justified and reasonable reasons for a given stance on a topic. I might not agree with them all personally, but at least I can go "Well, that's a justified and reasonable stance". But instead CTers have to come up with the most insane justifications under the sun.

It's like saying "I'm opposed to abortion because I think unborn children should be protected from having their life extinguished" or saying "if you have an abortion you're a murdering devil and you're gonna burn in hell because God hates you"

-Andrew

 

[Sir Knight]

So rather than this elaborate scheme you've concocted, why didn't they just quickly build some fake WMD sites in the middle of the desert somewhere?

I don't know never said I knew all the answers, I just have some facts which even when you put it all together still leaves some questions. There are probably only a few people that have all the answers and I am not one of them. For me to know more than what I do I would have to have been one of them, on the inside making the decisions stupid or otherwise.

And you must realize that the scheme you are talking about has to do with more than Iraq, the lies about the WDM had to do with IRAQ, never said that 9/11 had to do with that. Iraq should have been taken care of when we were over there the first time, when we were at the door. I can't explain why we didn't take care of it then, a lot less people would have died. That is almost a different chapter of a long story. And like I keep saying they do mess up for pete's sake. They are NOT GODS.

 

[Pardalis]

I just have some facts

Oh, great! Do you want to share them with us?