Loose Change - Part IV

[Gravy]

Does anyone besides me think it's hilarious that Loose Change Enemy #1 is not Bush or Cheney but our very own Gravy?

With all the attention these guys are giving their debunkers, I think that the Maddox piece, his linking to Gravy's Viewers Guide and Maddox's minions are really, really getting to them.

Wow – the Maddox page has had 621,802 hits since July 27.

 

[MarkyX]

Oh, I bet they'd hate you even more than me if they thought we weren't the same person.

Maybe if I flip them off, like Bush did in front of the camera in the same exact pose..

That way, they will not only know I am a different person, but I am Bush's bastard son.

The conspriacy would be so filled with awesomeness, that all the 9/11 Denier's head would explode at the exact same time and voila, no more Truth Movement.

 

[Darth Rotor]

While we're on the subject of Mr. Rowe, let's not forget this post on Screw Loose Change: Korey Rowe Supports Threatening Lawyers, Exaggerates War Record.
It's quite a read.

Your response, Mr. Rowe? Feel free to sign up here. Unlike on your forum, you won't be banned here for disagreeing.

"Camp Freedom," indeed.

From:
http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2002/07/23/afghan.html

Tom Rowe said he didn't know how to feel when he heard about the Sept. 11 attacks, knowing his son had just joined the army. "Since 9/11, when we were invaded, Korey's mom and myself had mixed feelings," he said. "But after talking to Korey for a while, and realizing that Korey was 100 percent behind what he was doing, it was a little better."

The biggest change in his son, Rowe said, has been mentally.

"He has matured immensely," he said. "Six months in Afghanistan has shown him how some people in other parts of the world live."

Korey Rowe agrees.

"The military is probably the best thing I have ever done for myself," he said.

Mr Rowe has perhaps reverted to his pre, not yet matured form, since his participation with Loose Change.

However . . . not a few returning soldiers experience a let down, emotionally, after returning from the intense environment that being in a war zone presents. I suspect he is looking for something as all consuming as that was, and has found it in Loose Change.

Gravy: In the next two years, don't be surprised if you meet a lot of military folks who are wary of, or even bitter about, the political shennanigans that got the US into the Iraq war. The opening rounds were the retired generals breaking Omerta.

I predict you will see quite a bit more in the next two years. You will also start to see acting out in reaction to "the stab in the back." We are just now seeing the tip of the ice berg. I chose those words explicitly, as I have seen them a number of different places. It puts a chill down my spine.

DR

 

[Gravy]

DR, That news story is about Rowe's tour in Afghanistan, but it's his tour in Iraq that got him steamed.

 

[Obviousman]

A point that should be clarified is when people start talking about "flying" the aircraft, and how difficult it is.

You might be confused; we have professional pilots saying it was easy to fly the aircraft into the Pentagon / WTC, but we have professional pilots talking about the high degree of skill needed to operate the aircraft.

I have purposely used two words there - "fly" the aircraft, and "operate" the aircraft.

Any but the most ham-fisted of people can fly an aircraft (of most varieties) with only the most basic of training. Operating the aircraft safely within design limits, dealing with systems failures or emergencies, negotiating bad weather - that takes a great deal of skill and years of training (because you never stop learning).

I remember a section from a great book called F-4 PHANTOM: A PILOTS STORY by Robert Prest. He was an RAF Phantom pilot. He talks about how he could easily & quickly teach his mother to fly an F-4. A little more time and she could takeoff and land one. Maybe even some basic aeros. He then talks about how she wouldn't be able to handle the emergencies, employ the aircraft as a weapon system, etc. That was why not everyone can become a pilot.

I just thought that distinction should be made.

"The superior pilot employs their superior knowledge to avoid situations where they may be called upon to use their superior skills."

 

[Brainster]

I would ask someone to post this on LC, but no doubt banishment would quickly follow. I'll email Mr. Rowe.

Rowe's always been something of the quiet one among the three; it's interesting that he wants to debate you. Definitely choose one on one rather than three on one; they can dominate the time without seeming unfair and one can be reloading while the other's taking shots at you. Also insist on some sort of agreement on visual aids--photos/video etc. Will there be an audience? I certainly recommend against that as Looser than Words can probably summon a decent crowd. Also insist on neutral cameraman, as I suspect the NYU prof can arrange.

Hit him where he's weak--passengers, planes and cellphone/Airfone calls, for starters. Don't let him dodge the issue; Rowe does not seem sophisticated enough to elude these issues if you hammer on them, but expect him to try a quick diversion or two. Remember how Fetzer tried to talk about the hijackers every time the passengers came up?

Anticipate his (or the moderator's) questions and work out the bullet points you want to cover. Almost certainly there will be a question to both of you about how you got started doing this. Work in some humor right here if you can. If you can hit one little joke about yourself and then one about Loose Change, you'll be off to the races. Abby may be able to help you in this regard.

Avoid getting emotional towards the other debater; this almost always backfires. Treat it as an intellectual exercise, and forget about the person you're debating. That's not to say you can't express outrage, but direct it at the words and ideas, not the person. Talk at a normal pace; the usual response of somebody being on camera, stage or the radio is to try to speed it up. But also avoid pauses at the end of sentences if you have more to say, because a smart opposing debater will use that opportunity to get in a response.

Don't let him get you on side paths, like the Iraq War. Whether you agree with him or not on that issue, push it off the table and remind him that you are there to discuss 9-11 and not the aftermath. You hit the exact right note on Korey's military service, but don't let him bully you with it like he tries to in that post.

Visuals--avoid moving while you are talking; see Sander Hicks in the Smorgasbord video for a good example of why this is a bad idea. Korey will probably show up in one of those "Investigate 9-11" tee shirts, so it shouldn't be hard to outdress him.

Consider holding a mock debate beforehand to get comfortable. Filming that would be great, so you can critique your own performance afterward.

I apologize if this is all obvious stuff, but it was actually something I wanted to put down anyway for others who might be interested in doing media appearances. James and I may have some overflow here in the next month and I don't mind sharing some opportunities.

 

[Brainster]

That lying sack of feces. If you inflict a "self inflicted wound" on your own person, you can be charged, and fined, at an Article 15 proceeding or a court martial. If you break your arm in the line of duty, you are treated, not fined, not arrested.

My dad used to love to tell about the time he got badly sunburnt on the beach on a day off and his CO threatened to charge him with destruction of government property.

But obviously there's a big difference between that and a combat injury.

 

[MarkyX]

Need a quickie.

Where can I find the law, in black and white on a government site, stating that the owners of the evidence (such as Pentagon tapes) have the authority to release them and not the FBI?

 

[Gravy]

Rowe's always been something of the quiet one among the three; it's interesting that he wants to debate you.

All good points, Brainster. Just to be clear, in his blog post he didn't specifically challenge me to a debate, he challenged "critics." As a critic, I accept his challenge. His comments about me were in the next paragraph.

 

[Brainster]

Need a quickie.

Where can I find the law, in black and white on a government site, stating that the owners of the evidence (such as Pentagon tapes) have the authority to release them and not the FBI?

Point them to the legal history of the Zapruder film. I believe that case went all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

[mrfreeze]

Here's hoping this actually happens.

 

[T.A.M.]

If you want to see the person every one should emulate when it comes to debating, check out the "Hardfire" Ron Weick Videos on 9/11. Man that guy is so calm when he debates, it is scary. Emulate him, with your knowledge base and facts on 9/11, and the LC crew will be peeing in their pants.

 

[Gravy]

Need a quickie.

Where can I find the law, in black and white on a government site, stating that the owners of the evidence (such as Pentagon tapes) have the authority to release them and not the FBI?

I'd be surprised if it's easy to find on a government site. I don't think it's a question that the public asks often. A distinction: when private property is used as evidence in a trial, it becomes a matter of public record, although the property itself remains the owner's, unless they've signed over the rights.

 

[T.A.M.]

Oh ya, and when they fall back on the "We are only asking questions", DONT LET THEM AWAY WITH IT!! That drives me. That film (LC) is so far from "just asking questions" that is a cop out that should not be left unaddressed.

 

[Brainster]

All good points, Brainster. Just to be clear, in his blog post he didn't specifically challenge me to a debate, he challenged "critics." As a critic, I accept his challenge. His comments about me were in the next paragraph.

Actually I had been more thinking about why him. You, me, JamesB or Markyx are obvious people to challenge, depending on how confident they are. But they've pretty consistently put Dylan or Jason out front in challenging situations. I've listened to a ridiculous amount of stuff from the Loosers and can't recall him being in the forefront of an interview where he wasn't alone.

Is this just a little Friday night machismo on his part?

 

[Brainster]

If you want to see the person every one should emulate when it comes to debating, check out the "Hardfire" Ron Weick Videos on 9/11. Man that guy is so calm when he debates, it is scary. Emulate him, with your knowledge base and facts on 9/11, and the LC crew will be peeing in their pants.

I don't think there's any doubt that the interview with Les Whatshisname was one of the alltime great moments in 9-11 Denial Debunking. Kudos again to Ron, Gravy, and Mike!

 

[MarkyX]

Point them to the legal history of the Zapruder film. I believe that case went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Hm I'm reading through, not giving much info. I need something hard that will say upfront that the FBI cannot release tapes without owner's permission

 

[MarkyX]

Actually I had been more thinking about why him. You, me, JamesB or Markyx are obvious people to challenge, depending on how confident they are. But they've pretty consistently put Dylan or Jason out front in challenging situations. I've listened to a ridiculous amount of stuff from the Loosers and can't recall him being in the forefront of an interview where he wasn't alone.

Is this just a little Friday night machismo on his part?

I'm the last person to be debating.

Let's say I would put Korey's military training to the test if he says something very stupid (ex: Hijackers being alive)

I've encountered a few morons today at the theatres and just wish that an ACME safe will fall on them.

MarkyX = One angry bastard

 

[Gravy]

That reminds me: for those who expressed a desire to help deal with Les and his Ground Zeros tomorrow, they set up near the big awning to the PATH station, Fulton & Church Sts. I'll be there at around 12:30. Les is supplying the beer.

 

[Abbyas]

I'll be there at around 12:30. Les is supplying the beer.

A dollar says the man hasn't even changed his pamphlets.