• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Loose Change - Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's completely fair. I too find it intuitively possible or even likely, but digging deeper into the numbers is good science and encouraged.

For an attempt at hard numbers, I suggest you take a look at Greening's paper (one I quote frequently), especially the work he references on pp. 9-10. If you want to work up your own estimate, these are the numbers to refute.

I've done some back-of-envelope calculations of my own, relying on my training (I am not a structural engineer but have studied solid mechanics), and found these results to be reasonable. I also have not seen any credible challenge to these numbers. But I'm always willing to consider any, should it appear.
I have worked through Greening's paper, and it does seem reasonable. However, I would encourage you to look at Gordon Ross's paper, if you have not done so already.

ETA: what I found interesting about Greenings work is that according to his analysis the energy absorbed by the impact of the airliners was in itself enough to make the towers fall. No need for fires then, contrary to what NIST says.
 
Last edited:
She is there "Chertoff" except, the connection is real, and proven.
 
Sat. Photo

Man, and here i was thinking that most satellites orbited outside the atmosphere. Oh, and that they didn't shoot with an f5.6 aperture.

tp://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-231700.html
Sorry you have to add the ht to the URL, I cant post links yet
 
Nancy Jo Sales is a "Truther", this explains the Vanity Fair article.

And a New Yorker, so there is absolutely no excuse for her failure to ask Popular Mechanics if the Chertoff's were related.

Nancy is no reporter - she takes dictation.

Vanity Fair's editors are lazy.

Man, and here i was thinking that most satellites orbited outside the atmosphere. Oh, and that they didn't shoot with an f5.6 aperture.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-231700.html
Sorry you have to add the ht to the URL, I cant post links yet


Welcome Dr.Cron,

Further proof that the towers did not fall "in their own footprint", as seen by the damamge to The World Financial center, Deutsche Bank, etc.

"Own Footprint?"

Maybe if the WTC was wearing snowshoes.
 
Last edited:
I have worked through Greening's paper, and it does seem reasonable. However, I would encourage you to look at Gordon Ross's paper, if you have not done so already.

ETA: what I found interesting about Greenings work is that according to his analysis the energy absorbed by the impact of the airliners was in itself enough to make the towers fall. No need for fires then, contrary to what NIST says.
I'll take another look at Gordon Ross's paper and get back to you.

You are correct about Greening's conclusion that, strictly in terms of energy budget, the jetliner impact itself had enough energy to destroy all the supports on a single floor completely. He treats this in his paper:

Dr. Greening said:
In Section 4.2 we showed that the energy needed to destroy the structural supports of a WTC tower by an aircraft impact was about 0.6 x 109 J. We must therefore look for additional impact energy sinks to account for the dissipation of the remaining 2.4 x 109 J of supplied kinetic energy. Two important energy sinks are the elastic strain energy dissipated by the sway of the recoiling building and the energy dissipated by the destruction of the impacting aircraft.
(From Greening, pg. 11).

Other important factors to consider are that the jetliner kinetic energy was not entirely directed at the supports. A considerable fraction of it was ablated by the building's exterior, passed through completely, or was absorbed by nonstructural internal materials such as sheetrock and office furniture. It also was not captured by a single floor, but spread over a few floors. This was also an extremely rapid process, and therefore inefficient, according to the principles of thermodynamics.

In contrast, the energy of collapse was all directed downward into the heart of the structure, and occurred on a much slower timetable. There were some losses from pieces that fell away from the building, but this is sure to have been a more efficient process.

I was pretty impressed that the structures stood up to the impacts, personally.
 
Oh ********...

7 Digit contracts? And he DENIES it?!

He could've been set for life and could have made a name himself. I smell BS.
 
I guarantee he wasn't offered a 7 figure contract. Are you kidding me, a wanna be filmaker who stumbled onto a tragedy that has made him an internet legend, and he turns down 7 figures....that has to go down as one of the lamest lies I have ever heard, which from the source, is saying something.
 
Oh ********...

7 Digit contracts? And he DENIES it?!

He could've been set for life and could have made a name himself. I smell BS.

He made the same claim in the Hufschmid phone call. I don't get it exactly, unless the offerer wanted them to blame it on the Jews.
 
wait. Before I go to the link and read, let me guess...

some of them think it is a conspiracy. A studio head, who secretly works for the BUSH govt is going to offer them a tonne of money, buy the film, than bury it so noone can see it...

Now I am really laughing. The film is not even good let alone dangerous. Fouk it, I'll buy it and guarantee it is released, just so the public can see it for what it is....a pile of shait.
 
I think he counted the 'dollar sign" the commas, and the decimal point.

Something like that, I'm sure. Or he misunderstood the "You owe us ******* USD for unlawfull copying of our materials" for a "We pay you ******* USD for copying our material.
7 Digits for that piece of crap? In his dreams maybe. In reality? Not unless the US networks are Really, really, REALLY desperate. In the area of "Loose Change is the last piece of video left in the Universe" desperate and even then......
I call Bovine Excrements on this one.
 
All the film is, is a collection of data, that has been presented in at least 50 other internet documentaries. the could cpoyright almost none of it, with the exception of the music (oh yeah). Why would someone offer them 5 figures, let alone 7 figures, to produce what they can do a much better job of, for much less.
 
Why do Greening and Ross disagree?

For brumsen, there is a difference between Greening's paper (http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf) and Ross's paper (http://worldtradecentertruth.com/Journal_5_PTransferRoss.pdf) about whether or not the initial collapse of the WTC towers had enough energy to initiate a progressive collapse. Greening shows that the kinetic energy of a single floor collapse is more than sufficient to break all of the support columns on a single floor, therefore the collapse can proceed just like we saw on TV (twice). Ross concludes differently, that Greening has neglected linear strain in the columns below, sufficient to provide a "shock absorber" effect as the standing columns compress like springs, and that the recalculated energy is insufficient.

There's a couple of problems I see with Ross's paper. Page numbers start from 1, not the number printed at the bottom of each page.

Gordon Ross said:
Bazant/Zhou [1] show in their analysis that elastic and plastic behaviour of a steel column under a dynamic buckling load can be shown to consist of three distinct phases. These can be
shown on a load against vertical deflection graph and consist of an initial elastic phase, a shortening phase and a rapid plastic deformation phase.
Ross is trying to bring out material properties of individual structural elements, more detailed than Greening's analysis. However, it's important to point out that Ross is trying to treat this problem one dimensionally. In reality, the columns will be subjected to a side force. The floor trusses are either failed or intact -- if failed, the top of the column is no longer constrained, and is free to deflect to the sides; if intact, the stronger core columns will experience less strain and the outer columns will be pulled inwards, balanced by an outward pull on the core. We also know from video evidence that both towers did not collapse, nor were hit, symmetrically.

I point this out because the yield strength of a column that is free on one end is considerably less than the yield strength where both ends are pinned.

Gordon Ross said:
Because these columns suffer a vertical deflection, the attached floors move downwards and they will therefore have a velocity and momentum.

Energy Losses:

A simple conservation of momentum calculation, ignoring these movements, would have, 16 falling storeys moving at 8.5 m/sec before impact, changing to 17 storeys moving at (8.5 * (16/17)) = 8 m/sec after impact. This does not reflect the fact that a minimum of 24 further storeys will be caused to move downwards at varying speeds.
I don't understand why he is considering momentum. He claims to be doing an energy balance equation. The energy loss due to plastic deformation of the columns (assuming we accept his model) can be found simply by multiplying the applied force on the columns (== yield strength) times the distance of motion (== plastic deformation limit, assumed to be 3% x column height).

Ross has made an error claiming that the intial impact would lose energy because it takes some energy to accelerate the floors below impact, that are not in contact with the falling upper floors but are pulled along by the compressing columns. If Ross wants to bring this into the equation, he has to account for the downside, too -- this acceleration applied to the lower floors, by virtue of their inertia, will have the effect of further twisting the columns where the floors are attached. Far from being "dissipated" harmlessly (Gordon is claiming this accounts for a loss of 66% of the energy), this energy is being pumped into deforming the support pillars.

Finally, if that mass is accelerated, it must be stopped as well. That energy didn't disappear. It was briefly converted into kinetic energy, but then it must be converted back. I reject Ross's assumption that you can neglect all of this energy. I will grant that it spreads the energy over several floors, but it still contributes to structural damage and weakening of the columns.

Gordon Ross said:
The strain energy consumed by the impacted storey columns in the elastic phase and plastic shortening phase can be calculated using the failure load. The failure load used throughout this analysis is derived using the mass above the impact, 58 000 tonnes, and a safety factor of 4.
I question this assumption, uncited. You can bury nearly anything in a fudge factor of 4, which seems high. There are more detailed descriptions of the WTC design available, so there's no need to guess.

Gordon Ross said:
Energy Summary:
The energy balance can be summarised as
Energy available;
Kinetic energy 2105MJ
Potential energy Additional downward movement 95MJ
Compression of impacting section 32MJ
Compression of impacted section 24MJ
Total Energy available 2256MJ

Energy required;
Momentum losses 1389MJ
Plastic strain energy in lower impacted storey 244MJ
Plastic strain energy in upper impacted storey 215MJ
Elastic strain energy in lower storeys 64MJ
Elastic strain energy in upper storeys 126MJ
Pulverisation of concrete on impacting floor 304MJ
Pulverisation of concrete on impacted floor 304MJ
Total Energy required 2646MJ

Minimum Energy Deficit -390MJ
(emphasis added)

I'd call this a smoking gun. Ross in his energy balance equation has double-counted the floor collapse energy. He's assuming not only the floor getting hit has to collapse, but also the lowest floor of the falling block collapses as well (bolded items). Well, that could be, but if both of them collapse, you're not dropping that weight one floor -- you're dropping it two floors. Energy available DOUBLES.

I also note that the calculated loss due to "momentum losses," e.g. the allegedly harmless acceleration of lower floors due to plastic deformation, is greater than half of the energy budget. That is a heck of a big correction. As noted above, I disagree that you can simply throw this energy away, because it is still contained in the structure.

As noted before, all of the other real-world conditions that are hard to simulate -- asymmetric damage before collapse, asymmetric impact, anisotropic deformation caused by fires -- are not included in this paper. Far from being a "conservative" estimate as is claimed, this model, even if taken at face value, would not be entirely conclusive.

A final point that Ross has not addressed is that the floor that the upper stories fell upon was not in blueprint condition! It was immediately below the raging fire that collapsed the impact floor, suffered deformation from proximity to the impact floor, and was heated enough to weaken its yield strength. Again, even if we take Ross's numbers as correct, but add another floor's worth of gravitational energy, we still get collapse initiation.

To conclude, this is way better than the usual CT fodder but would still fail peer review. He's shown his math and assumptions, and I credit him for that. But I reject several of his assumptions, I don't understand why he complicates the energy balance equation, and even if true his "energy deficit" is too small to be a definitive disproof of collapse. And that's for the tower that was hit more gently.

ETA: Missed that Ross also double-counted the concrete-crunching energy. In fact, neither floor would have to be pulverized before collapse could initiate -- the floors are not holding up the structure. They can be crushed later.

Bottom line, Ross is way off, even with his own numbers.
 
Last edited:
MERCs Claims noone can debbunk his Pentagon argument

Is this true. Is this there smoking gun. he states NOONE can debunk his claims. I am far from an expert, and I am still in the early days of my research, but I woul dlove Gravy or Brainster to take a look. I will too, of course.

Actually some of the best Pentagon debunking has come from the 9-11 Denial Movement. Let's see...

Catherder's post at Above Top Secret.

Jim Hoffman's post over at 911 Research.

These pics which somebody pointed out here a little earlier are good evidence. Look at the third and fourth pictures especially; they show a lot more damage than the Deniers claim.

This Pentagon animation does a terrific job of showing how the damage came from a 757.

Speaking for myself only, I've always thought the Pentagon missile/C-130, etc., stuff is nuttiness topped only by the no-planers. It's almost better not to debunk them, because they're so obviously wrong that they discredit the other Deniers.
 
Nancy Jo Sales is a "Truther", this explains the Vanity Fair article.

http://nancyjosales.com/blog/

Yeah, Dylan made some comments on the forum about how she'd been pitching 9-11 stories for months to the editors. I wonder who looked up SLC and added us to the article; I suspect it wasn't her.

I guess we see from Rosebud #4 why Korey's the quiet one of the group most of the time.
 
Yeah, Dylan made some comments on the forum about how she'd been pitching 9-11 stories for months to the editors. I wonder who looked up SLC and added us to the article; I suspect it wasn't her.

I guess we see from Rosebud #4 why Korey's the quiet one of the group most of the time.


Is Rosebud #4, a code word for Four Roses? That might explain a lot.

As for Korey, this is what he was like before Dylan:

http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2002/07/23/afghan.html

Also known as "what do you want me to say this time?"

Poor Korey, they didn't tell him things in the army - they didn't let him do things his way. Don't complain kid, you can always use those veterans points to get a job at the post office.
 
Last edited:
I realize that R. Mackey has address a lot of this already but I fear my previous post had been lost in the shuffle:
http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/sciam/
in part
...
Kausel also reported that he had made estimates of the amount of energy generated during the collapse of each tower. "The gravitational energy of a building is like water backed up behind a dam," he explained. When released, the accumulated potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. With a mass of about 500,000 tons (5 x 108 kilograms), a height of about 1,350 ft. (411 meters), and the acceleration of gravity at 9.8 meters per second 2, he came up with a potential energy total of 1019 ergs (1012 Joules or 278 Megawatt-hours). "That's about 1 percent of the energy released by a small atomic bomb," he noted.

The M.I.T. professor added that about 30 percent of the collapse energy was expended rupturing the materials of the building, while the rest was converted into the kinetic energy of the falling mass. The huge gray dust clouds that covered lower Manhattan after the collapse were probably formed when the concrete floors were pulverized in the fall and then jetted into the surrounding neighborhood. "Of the kinetic energy impacting the ground, only 0.1 percent was converted to seismic energy," he stated. "Each event created a (modest-sized) magnitude 2 earthquake, as monitored at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Observatory, which is located about 30 kilometers away from New York City." Kausel concluded that the "the largest share of the kinetic energy was converted to heat, material rupture and deformation of the ground below." ...

ETA: Oh, and Obviousman, the term you want is "minions"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom