Prayer and power

[RandFan]

What does God give? Ask and ye shall receive WHAT?

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 17:20 says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed ... and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Please explain the meaning of "all things ye shall receive" and "nothing shall be impossible unto you."

 

[Bri]

"Disturbed"? I'm not "disturbed". I think praying for gold to fall from the sky or to grow a third arm fall under the scripture.

Perhaps, but they're not required by it.

However there is clearly a distinction between children without arms and someone who would like a third arm, don't you?

Sure, it is easier to imagine a reason why one category of prayer wouldn't be granted.

And here is the problem. Why? Why did it take thousands of years and scientific experimentation and trial and error to heal people? I don't see God anywhere in there. But assuming that god was involved, why is he so arbitrary at best and capricious at worst?

Again, you've got a valid point, just not one that most Christians would find especially compelling. Christians don't have to know the answer to "why" to believe.

This is just a cop out. What was meant by "nothing shall be impossible unto you"?

I doubt that Christians believe it impossible for God to regrow an amputated limb. It is possible that God may have done so without your ever knowing about it.

This is an abuse of logic. We have God, over and over declaring that "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible".

What does this mean? You say there is another interpretation, ok, then please provide for me that interpretation?

You can see why I thought that you were arguing that the scripture says that God will grant ALL prayers (or at least all categories of prayers). If you're not interpreting it in that way, you'll need to explain again what you're implying. If you are interpreting it that way, then it is clear that you're interpreting it in a manner that no Christian that I know of interprets it. You'd have to ask them specifically how they do interpret it (I believe elliotfc has already stated his interpretation).

Miracles. If I can't tell a miracles from statistical anomaly then what is the point of Miracles?

Perhaps the point isn't to impress you, but to accomplish whatever it is that is accomplished by the miracle.

Uri Geller says he can bend spoons with his mind and he provides a demonstration that appears that he can bend spoons with his mind. James Randi performs the same demonstration and it looks exactly the same but we know that Randi isn't using his mind.

If you're making a comparison between Randi's spoon-bending and a doctor's practice of medicine, I think you'll agree that they aren't equivalent. Randi may prove that spoons can be bent without God, but I'm not sure that medicine proves that all patients can be healed without God. It is possible that some (even all) patients are healed with God's help and would die without it. Even doctors have been known to make statements about medical miracles and patients' lives being in God's hands. Medicine is far from an exact science.

What good is a miracle that has a prosaic explanation?

Perhaps the "good" of the miracle is that it accomplished what it was meant to accomplish rather than making it clear to us that miracles exist.

Why does God promise "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible" if that is not what he meant? How else should I interpret the scripture? You keep saying that there is another why to interpret "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible". If that is true then one ought to provide the other interpretation.

How are you interpreting the scripture? Are you saying that you interpret the scripture to indicate that all categories of prayer are answered? It seems to indicate that all are possible (i.e. that it is not impossible for God to make gold fall from the sky), but that doesn't mean that all are answered.

Ok, but here is the problem, God said "All things...ye shall recieve" and that "Nothing shall be impossible". What good are naturally occurring miracles that would occur whether there was a God or there wasn't a God keeping in mind the promises made?

I'm still unclear as to exactly what promises you feel were made, but assuming there is a God, what evidence do you have that all people who have been healed of ailments would have been healed if there was no God?

I'm not overstating my case. It really is logical to realize that there is a problem.

I don't see a logical inconsistency in the Christian belief concerning prayer. I don't agree with them, but I don't think they are logically inconsistent either. I think Christianity has rather well covered its bases as far as prayer is concerned.

I took a course in statistics at the University. I came to understand that there always are, and always will be, anomalies. It is theoretically possible to survive falling from a plane without a parachute or any means of safety. If a person survives from a plane crash is that a miracle? Statistics says that we should expect such a thing every so many times a person falls out of a plane.

I couldn't say. If God intervened to make it happen (and it wouldn't have happened otherwise) then it was indeed a miracle. Being able to explain something as a statistical anomaly doesn't preclude the possibility that it's not.

But that flies in the face of what we have been promised.

What are you claiming we've been promised?

Please define "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible"?

I hesitate to put words in your mouth again, so please tell me what you think it means. I can say that few if any Christians take that passage to indicate that God will grant all prayers, nor that God will grant all categories of prayer in such a way that they could be documented so that you would recognize them as obvious miracles.

Who's miracle? We know wow that medicine was developed. It is well documented. Medicine took centuries to get to where it is know. Scientists relied on the empirical method to get that medicine. Many people had to die before science was able to develop it. So why should God get the credit? No medicine is 100% perfect. Most if not all medicines carry risks and undesirable side effects.

I simply said that if God is responsible for the successes of medicine (as at least some Christians undoubtedly believe), then it's not inconsistent to give God credit.

1.) God doesn't grant every prayer.
2.) Some types of prayer God never answers.

1 and 2 are not equivalent. In light of Scripture I could construct an argument for 1.

In light of scripture I can't construct and argument for 2.

I don't see anything in the scripture you've posted that would indicate that God must grant prayers asking for gold to fall from the sky. I also don't think you can prove that God has never regrown a limb.

-Bri

 

[roger]

Hey Bri, if you give me your car and title to it, I'll grant you anything you ask in return. Any and all things. You just have to ask.

I'm sure you'll be happy when I respond that the $5 million you asked for is not covered in the above agreement, because it doesn't specifically mention money.

 

[slingblade]

Bri, I don't know where you live, but someday, you simply must go to the rural south of the U.S. If you are there already, then I don't know how you have managed to miss this so far.

The red-faced, sweaty preacher stands before his congregation, his leather covered bible in one hand, a handkerchief in the other. He fixes you with his gaze; you are sure he is talking to you and only you. Organ music punctuates his speech:

"Brother and Sisters, does God answer prayer?"

Yes!

"Brothers and Sisters, does God answer only some prayers? Does God answer the prayers of....just the rich?"

NO!

"The prayers of....just the popular? (NO!) Just the old? (NO!) That's right! he answers the prayers....of...EVERYBODY!"

Praise the Lord!

"Who loves him and does his will. If you are lame--"
Yes!
"If you are halt--"
Yes!
"If you are discouraged--"
Yes!
"If you are weary--"
Yes!
"If you are sorely troubled--"
Amen, brother!
"If you are without a hope in this world....God....answers....prayer!"
Praise His Holy name!
"I say unto you--"
Yes, Lord!
"Whatsover ye ask in MY name--"
"Tell it, Preacher!"
"If ye have the faith of a mustard seed--"
Yes, Lord!"
"Ye shall say unto that mountain--"
"Amen!"
"BE YE REMOVED--"
"Removed, Lord!'
"And it shall be...removed!"
Amen!
"Whatsoever ye ask--"
Yes!
"In My name--"
Yes!
"Ye shall receive!"


Okay, it goes on and on like that. Now listen to that from the time you are an infant until you are an adult. And then try to figure out why it never seems to work like that.

We know better than to make sweeping generalizations, so we can't say all Christians believe this. But I know from being in it that many, many do believe it. And when the answer one seeks is not forthcoming from God, then the apologia comes out, because that is the only way to explain it.

 

[Bri]

Hey Bri, if you give me your car and title to it, I'll grant you anything you ask in return. Any and all things. You just have to ask.

I'm sure you'll be happy when I respond that the $5 million you asked for is not covered in the above agreement, because it doesn't specifically mention money.

Are you really now arguing that the scripture quoted indicates that God will answer any and all prayers?

-Bri

 

[Bri]

Slingblade, you write beautifully and vividly, and if you're not already, you really should consider being a writer.

Bri, I don't know where you live, but someday, you simply must go to the rural south of the U.S. If you are there already, then I don't know how you have managed to miss this so far.

The red-faced, sweaty preacher stands before his congregation, his leather covered bible in one hand, a handkerchief in the other. He fixes you with his gaze; you are sure he is talking to you and only you. Organ music punctuates his speech:

I grew up in Atlanta, which isn't the rural south, but is close enough that I understand the type of person you're describing here.

"Brother and Sisters, does God answer prayer?"

Yes!

"Brothers and Sisters, does God answer only some prayers? Does God answer the prayers of....just the rich?"

NO!

"The prayers of....just the popular? (NO!) Just the old? (NO!) That's right! he answers the prayers....of...EVERYBODY!"

That is far from the argument being made in this thread. That God would grant prayers of rich and poor alike has little to do with the topic. Does God grant every prayer of the poor? Does God grant every prayer of the rich? I don't think even the preacher you describe would say so.

Praise the Lord!

"Who loves him and does his will. If you are lame--"
Yes!
"If you are halt--"
Yes!
"If you are discouraged--"
Yes!
"If you are weary--"
Yes!
"If you are sorely troubled--"
Amen, brother!
"If you are without a hope in this world....God....answers....prayer!"
Praise His Holy name!
"I say unto you--"
Yes, Lord!
"Whatsover ye ask in MY name--"
"Tell it, Preacher!"
"If ye have the faith of a mustard seed--"
Yes, Lord!"
"Ye shall say unto that mountain--"
"Amen!"
"BE YE REMOVED--"
"Removed, Lord!'
"And it shall be...removed!"
Amen!
"Whatsoever ye ask--"
Yes!
"In My name--"
Yes!
"Ye shall receive!"

Now you're getting a little closer, but I still don't think the rhetoric implies that God will make gold fall from the sky or will grow a third arm for anyone who asks him to. If anyone does, in fact, believe that then I can agree with you that it would be inconsistent with reality. I don't think I'm putting words in his mouth by saying that elliotfc doesn't believe that, nor does anyone I could find on the Internet (but if you have a link to someone who does, I'll readily agree that they're nuts).

Okay, it goes on and on like that. Now listen to that from the time you are an infant until you are an adult. And then try to figure out why it never seems to work like that.

We know better than to make sweeping generalizations, so we can't say all Christians believe this. But I know from being in it that many, many do believe it. And when the answer one seeks is not forthcoming from God, then the apologia comes out, because that is the only way to explain it.

The question of whether or not these are mainstream Christian beliefs notwithstanding, I'm not saying that Christian beliefs are right, nor even that they can't be harmful, just that they're not necessarily inconsistent. I acknowledge the possibility that the beliefs of some Christians are, in fact, inconsistent (and as I said, I'd readily agree with you that those who hold them are irrational).

However, there are many possible reasons that the Christian God might not grant the prayer of any amputee who asks to have his arm restored, but might grant the prayer of some cancer patients to be healed.

-Bri

 

[ceo_esq]

Are you really now arguing that the scripture quoted indicates that God will answer any and all prayers?

And in the affirmative, no less?

 

[RandFan]

Perhaps, but they're not required by it.

I have no idea what this means.

Sure, it is easier to imagine a reason why one category of prayer wouldn't be granted.

I'm not sure why it matters.

Again, you've got a valid point, just not one that most Christians would find especially compelling. Christians don't have to know the answer to "why" to believe.

I don't doubt that Christians wouldn't find it compelling. I think that is the problem. Logic is fuzzy when it comes to scripture. It can be bent to mean anything you want it to. "Everything" becomes somethings and "nothing is impossible" is interpreted to mean "nothing is impossible that isn't impossible".

So my point is that there is a logical problem. A disconnect. One must avoid logic to interpret what God meant by "All things".

I doubt that Christians believe it impossible for God to regrow an amputated limb. It is possible that God may have done so without your ever knowing about it.

To make this statement is to not understand the argument. This has been conceded. We only know that when it is put to the test, documented, God never heals that which is impossible to heal. So to say, "well it could have happened" is disingenuous.

You can see why I thought that you were arguing that the scripture says that God will grant ALL prayers (or at least all categories of prayers).

I have no idea what you are saying. You are not making sense.

1.) You tell me that there is another possibility.
2.) I say no there isn't.
3.) I say demonstrate that other possibility.
4.) You say go ask a Christian.

This is not arguing in good faith.

If you're making a comparison between Randi's spoon-bending and a doctor's practice of medicine, I think you'll agree that they aren't equivalent.

I'm trying to make a valid point. If I can't distinguish a miracle from a non miracle then what is the point of miracles?

I keep asking the question and you keep ducking it.

Perhaps the "good" of the miracle is that it accomplished what it was meant to accomplish rather than making it clear to us that miracles exist.

Then why assume that there are miracles at all? If God is so arbitrary and he will never heal those who are are otherwise impossible to heal, and, I can't tell the difference between a miracle and a non miracle then what is the point?

How are you interpreting the scripture? Are you saying that you interpret the scripture to indicate that all categories of prayer are answered? It seems to indicate that all are possible (i.e. that it is not impossible for God to make gold fall from the sky), but that doesn't mean that all are answered.

I'm sorry Bri but I really think you are being disingenuous. The language is unambiguous. Your Gold from the sky does not clarify anything. You are trying to find an absurd example but it doesn't wash.

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Yeah, Gold falling from the sky falls under that scripture. If you ask in prayer believing that you will receive it you will receive it.

Question: Why not? Based on that scripture why would God not make gold rain down from the sky?

I'm still unclear as to exactly what promises you feel were made...

I'm crystal clear.

"All things...ye shall receive"

"All things" is there something that you don't understand about "all things"? Now you can say that Christians don't believe all things means all things but to do so is to miss the point.

...but assuming there is a God, what evidence do you have that all people who have been healed of ailments would have been healed if there was no God?

Why assume a God at all? That is the problem. You are starting from the position that there is a God.

1.) Not all people who are prayed for are healed.
2.) There is zero correlation between being prayed for and healing.

To answer your question, all empirical evidence points in the direction that there are no miraculous healing just conformation bias.

I don't see a logical inconsistency in the Christian belief concerning prayer. I don't agree with them, but I don't think they are logically inconsistent either. I think Christianity has rather well covered its bases as far as prayer is concerned.

Not based on any logic. What is your reason to suppose this?

I couldn't say. If God intervened to make it happen (and it wouldn't have happened otherwise) then it was indeed a miracle. Being able to explain something as a statistical anomaly doesn't preclude the possibility that it's not.

Please to cite a single event that God made happen that wouldn't have happened otherwise?

What are you claiming we've been promised?

This is really frustrating. I'm beginning to think you are being obtuse.

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Matthew 17:20 says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed ... nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Promises:
1.) All things ye shall receive.
2.) Nothing shall be impossible.

Bri, what about "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible" do you not get?

I hesitate to put words in your mouth again, so please tell me what you think it means. I can say that few if any Christians take that passage to indicate that God will grant all prayers, nor that God will grant all categories of prayer in such a way that they could be documented so that you would recognize them as obvious miracles.

Non responsive. I will ask again.

Please define "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible"?

I simply said that if God is responsible for the successes of medicine (as at least some Christians undoubtedly believe), then it's not inconsistent to give God credit.

I don't see anything in the scripture you've posted that would indicate that God must grant prayers asking for gold to fall from the sky.

Matthew 21:22 says, ...all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

I beg to differ. You have yet to explain what was meant by "all things" and "nothing shall be impossible". If you can't then fine but why go on and on? I'm asking reasonable questions. Answer them or don't but let's skip with telling me that Christians have it all figured out.

I also don't think you can prove that God has never regrown a limb.

I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that you can't fly by simply flapping your arms when no one is looking.

Here is the point, can you prove that God has regrown a limb?

 

[allanb]

I simply said that if God is responsible for the successes of medicine (as at least some Christians undoubtedly believe), then it's not inconsistent to give God credit.

No, but it's inconsistent to allow God responsibility for the successes and not for the failures.

 

[elliotfc]

He (and his son) should do what (they) supposedly promised to do. Nothing more or less:

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

You had to leave out verse 13. Didn't you. Yes, yes you did.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Verse 20, which you didn't include, says "in my name". When we ask for things that we want without considering God's will, we ask for those things in our own names.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

21:21, which you didn't include, says "and do not doubt".

If you really think that prayer is unconditional...that's on you. It is because of that belief that you think as you do, and I've done more than enough to answer these points, where isolated verses are established to put the lie to the Word of God, when prayer is talked about much more fully in the NT as a whole, where Christians understand what Christian prayer is all about.

There are enough biblical passages that clearly indicate that a nuanced approach to understanding Christian prayer is necessary.

Jesus prayed to God. You can *understand prayer* if you examine how he prayed to God. He qualified his requests with *if it be Your will*. THAT IS PRAYING IN GOD'S NAME.

Of course you haven't addressed my other points. What if God answers every prayer that could possibly be put to him? What if we prayed that Jesus was Satan? Of course you believe that God would make Jesus Satan. Utter nonsense. Clearly you are obstinate in wanting to take singular verses, make them into a sort of God, and apply that to God, when using a bit of reasoning makes this perfectly acceptable to me and other Christians.

There are plenty of others. The only requirement I can see in any of them is that the person praying should believe. "Believe what" is not specified. But you can cover the eventualities pretty easily:

I agree, this has to do with what you *can see*. I'm indicating the things that you are not seeing.

I'm praying to God, because I believe in God. That's one.
I believe God can give me what I ask for, because he's God. That's two.
I believe God will give me what I ask for, because he said he would, see above. That's three.

The NT says much more about prayer that simply the above.

So when I believe, and I ask for something over a period of decades and don't get it, and when I ask for different things and don't get them, either, what am I to think?

1. God lies.
2. I am asking for help from an imaginary being.

Yes, the being you've imagined, the being you has nothing to say about prayer except what you mention.

Now, you can make apologies for God, and you can invent all kinds of conditions. But the truth is, the promises are very simple, and have only one condition: belief. And yet time and again, the promises are not kept.

Put the Lord to the test all you want, you have that right.

I invent no conditions, I have provided the verses, I didn't create the verses.

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

Put the Lord to the test all you want, you have that right.

Big unspoken assumption here. It is impossible to put "the Lord" to the test until the existence of "the Lord" has been established. No proof has been given that "the Lord" exists, in fact the evidence is overwhelmingly against such existence.

So your statement above has no meaning as it stands. I recommend:

"Put the existence and, should it exist, the nature of the Lord to the test all you want, you have that right."

Having done so it looks to me as if the Lord isn't there or he's a very wicked Lord.

 

[elliotfc]

God's Guarantee: And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:22

Disclaimer: God reserves the right to answer your prayer with the answer he deems fit. God reserves the right of substitution. God reserves the right to substitute no answer for an answer because if you think about it "no" is an answer. Also if you pray for a puppy God has the right to substitute a lollipop given to you from your aunt in lieu of the puppy.

Yeah, God is omnipotnet. Or that's what y'all keep telling me.

Yeah. God does what God wants to do.

Yeah. God is not contingent on anyone else's will.

Bummer that we can't put God in a box and press the button and make God into our personal slave. I'm sorry for the people who want that, or who expect that, based on a selfish reading of the Bible. Why can't we be more powerful than God? I dunno...ask the people who keep bringing up God's omniscience.

And for the third or fourth time, you (and others) leave out verse 21. But cleraly that means nothing to you, so I'll stop saying that.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Can't remember if I addressed this one.

This contradicts everything we see: faith healers, collective praying for the soldiers in Irak, prayers for the ill, etc. Christians pray because they expect results. Of course, when the results are favorable, it's God's miracle; when they aren't, God works in mysterious ways.

Yes, Christians have expectations when we pray. We also expect God's will to be done.

Ghost dances? Sunday mass is a the modern version.

Ghost dances were done for specific reasons. It was believed that the ritual would compel the Gods to bring dead warriors back, and to restore the wealth and prosperity of the tribes. Here's the thing. They didn't work. And the recognition that they didn't work made the practice limited to a number of decades, probably about 30 years in total.

I understand that an analogy can be made between any religious ritual and the Ghost Dance, but by greater point was that efficacy of ritual, when understood, can explain shelf life. Sunday Mass has been around for what, 1900 years maybe or something? No end in site. Now, you can understand that by understanding that we DO NOT expect God to do whatever we tell him to do, as the Native American tribes expected when they performed the Ghost Dance ritual. But I do grant you that you can also draw analogies between Sunday Mass and the Ghost Dance. But perhaps you can also see the point I am making here.

If we REALLY BELIEVED that God would do whatever we ask of him, if we only prayed, Sunday Mass would go the way of the Ghost Dance. But it hasn't, and it won't, so I say we don't accept the dogmatic imposition of prayer that you would have us accept.

The only difference with the tribal rituals is that Christianity is the dominant religion. If and when Christianity loses its top spot, its rituals will be seen as superstition.

The Ghost Dances didn't die because they were seen as superstition. They simply didn't work, *when they were expected to work*.

If we start talking about Catholicism, the examples multiply. I've seen pilgrims walk hundreds of miles to ask for special favors from God or the Virgin Mary. I've seen parents crawling on bloody knees up to a church, with their sick child in arms, begging for a miracle cure. I've heard endless rosaries in hospitals. And when the results are not what expected, they just try again, and again, and again, because the believe their prayers weren't good enough. These are the ghost dances of our times.

Right, they keep trying. What's wrong with trying? There's nothing wrong with praying, and obviously their understanding of prayer is such that *unanswered prayers* do not determine that they will, at some point, stop praying (although a fraction of such people do just that). But with the Ghost Dance...the unanswered ritual did determine that *nobody* participated in that ritual after a number of years.

The more masses you can identify in multiple locales and variations, the more you prove my point. The *failure* of prayer, as you suggest, does not have the result you'd expect. Yes, a fraction of these people will reject their faith,. But since most do not, clearly they have an understanding about prayer that you do not seem to grasp, right?

Again, there's nothing wrong with asking God for something. If you accept that all be done according to God's will, you can pray your entire life and not lost faith in God. That's the caveat. You call that a cop-out. As long as you recognize it's there, call it what you want. That's the difference. If it's objective reality, calling it a cop-out is individual superfluity.

-Elliot

 

[Bri]

No, but it's inconsistent to allow God responsibility for the successes and not for the failures.

I imagine that Christians might also give God responsibility for at least some "failures," particularly those where the person dies because of God's intervention, but otherwise would have lived. Of course, they don't consider them failures.

-Bri

 

[elliotfc]

Eliot,

We do not ask that God answers ALL prayers (despite the biblical verses quoted above). Or even most. That's not the point of the amputee website.

Fair 'nuff.

The point the amputee website makes is that God never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever (ever) answers an amputee's prayers regarding amputation. Yet there are all kinds of claims that God answers prayers to cure cancer, save miners, etc.

Cancer is a terminal illness, and amputation is not. Saving miners is to rescue from death, and giving a limb is not a rescue from death.

Do most amputee's pray that God restores their limbs? I don't know. Do some? Probably.

Also, maybe God *has* answered their prayers, in his own way, as prosthetic limbs can take the place of a missing limb.

Christians believe that we *must* have faith to believe. If God made stacks of cash appear before our very eyes out of nothing, if he restored limbs basically out of thin air, if we snatched babies out of the middle of the road and levitated them to safety, this will contradict the necessity of faith to believe.

God *has* never, and I don't think he *will* ever, perform an undeniable miracle. That's part of the plan, that's why FAITH matters, because if he performed undeniable miracles (which is what the website is asking for), there is no reason for faith.

Now...why should faith matter? I think God will give the true answer, there are answers that we give which I won't get into right now (unless you want me to) because that might open a whole extra set of threads and I'm trying to stick to prayer here.

That website...it has two addresses. Why does God HATE amputees, and why won't God heal amputees. Interesting. A few things have popped into my head about that...but no need to psychologize the author of the site.

So, either God really hate amputees, or people are mistaken about God is answering prayers to cure cancer, etc.

I'm guessing you fall into the latter camp?

No, hopefully my response has added more to the dichotomy that you have tried to establish.

Good post though, really.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Well, this sounds like your opinion on the matter. Here are some links, from major and minor Christian sources, which take a different tack. This is why we are confused - major Christian sources claim that God answers prayers.

I could just keep linking, but that would be annoying to both of us, and you get the idea. None of these links claim that all prayers are answered, or that the answer is what we want, but that it sometimes work (for convuluted reasons that I don't personally buy).

Yet amputees never get their prayers answered. Weird, huh?

I clipped the links, there's no reason for them to appear twice in this thread. I'd say, I'd bet, that most of those types behind those sites will have no problem with at least most of my points.

Now. If amputees did get their prayers answered, we'd live in a *very very very* different world, don't you think? It would kinda change everything.

Also...if they did get their prayers answered...it wouldn't make much sense to *stop* there. So-called ugly people would get new faces...white kids who want to be black could get that done...my nose could get smaller without having to get surgery.

It's a really nifty, eye-catching example, amputees. But we won't stop there (how could we?). You're asking for miracles of a different species, that's why amputation is brought up. To reiterate, these sorts of miracles would make the skeptic say "well, I don't need faith now, I've got this!"

The amputee thing would probably, or certainly, win the Randi challenge. And what's the point of the Randi challenge? What's the point of skepticism? Faith as the ultimate anathema. But Christians believe that faith is a gift. I'm rambling a bit, I could probably make the point more directly, or maybe you can do that for me if you like, I think I know what I'm saying and I think I'm getting the point across.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Maybe somebody that god really loves is praying every day for amputees not to be healed.

You could wrestle god and make him tap out like Jacob did. God can be made to serve your will with physical force. Who needs prayer when you can get better results from a perfected abdominal stretch. Genesis 32:22-30

arf arf heh heh

 

[elliotfc]

Thanks Roger. Yes, this really is the salient point and it is easy to lose focus as to this point.

That which is otherwise impossible to heal without god is also impossible to heal with god.

Not impossible, because people keep telling me that God is omniscient.

Yes, there will be alternate explanations for God's miracles, and the miracle will then be accepted on faith, or rejected.

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

Yeah, God is omnipotnet. Or that's what y'all keep telling me.

Yeah. God does what God wants to do.

Yeah. God is not contingent on anyone else's will.

Is god contingent upon his own will? That is, having expressed his will, does he ever decide he was wrong and change his mind?

(Hint: Depends on which bits of the Bible you pick and which you decide to ignore.)

 

[elliotfc]

Then why bother? If God is omnipotent, his will will be done, by definition.

Because *we* need to pray. People ought to pray. Here's a website, I think I'll just cut and paste it if y'all don't mind.

http://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html

Question: "Why pray? What is the point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything. If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray?"

Answer: Why pray? Why pray when God is already in perfect control of everything? Why pray when God knows what we are going to ask before we ask it?

(1) Prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38). We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7).

(2) Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also.

(3) God intends for prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations:

a) Preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13)

b) Overcoming demonic barriers in lives (Matthew 17:14-21)

c) The gathering of workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2)

d) The gaining of strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41)

e) The means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19)

(4) We have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we don't receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27).

(5) He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15).

Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. God’s wisdom far exceeds our own.

In situations for which we do not know specifically what God's will is, prayer is a means of discerning God’s will. If Peter had not asked for Jesus to call for him to come out of the boat and onto the water, he would have missed that opportunity (Matthew 14:28-29). If the Syrian woman with the demon-influenced daughter had not prayed to Christ, her daughter would not have been made whole (Mark 7:26-30). If the blind man outside of Jericho would not have called out to Christ, he would have still been blind (Luke 18:35-43). God has said that often we go without because we do not ask (James 4:2). In one sense, prayer is like sharing the gospel with people. We do not know who will respond to the message of the gospel until we share it. It is the same with prayer: we will never see the results of answered prayer until we pray.

A lack of prayer demonstrates the a lack of faith and a lack of trust in God’s Word. We pray to demonstrate our faith in God, that He will do as He has promised in His Word, and will bless our lives abundantly more than we could ask or hope for (Ephesians 3:20). Prayer is our primary means of seeing God work in others' lives. Because it is our means of "plugging into" God's power, it is our means of defeating a foe and his army (Satan and his army) that we are powerless to overcome by ourselves. Therefore, may God find us often before His throne, for we have a High Priest in heaven who can identify with all that we go through (Hebrews 4:15-16). We have His promise that the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much (James 5:16-18). May God glorify His name in our lives as we believe in Him enough to come to Him often in prayer.