To the Christians here...

Ok, you want generalized... here we go.

Ok you are correct, sorry for the miscommunication. Yes, I do generalize. I thought you were implying that this is somehow a bad thing, or even incorrect, thats why I tried to defend myself.

Some say there is a fine line between skepticism and cynicism. I think perhaps you have crossed that line a long time ago and can no longer see it in your rear view mirror.

Probably, but my cynicism is pretty much reserved for human behavior and nothing else.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :
...What can illustrate the possibility or impossibility of a spiritual dimension in a physical world?
Again, I'm not talking possible or impossible, I'm talking about what it would take for you personally to admit you were wrong.

How can something that isn't provable be proven to the point that "I" am "wrong" for maintaining faith in the testimony of others?

For you, is it all about "proving" the Huntster wrong for believing something?

Is that important to you?

Why?
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :
Death, then darkness.................
This is the kind of idea that prompts the fear of death, and the desire of (or need to believe in) an afterlife. Darkness, nothingness, loneliness; is that really what you think non-existence would be like?

I don't know. I can only believe, because (since I'm not physically dead yet), I have no way to know otherwise. That's why I'm forced to believe or disbelieve.

Why is that so difficult for some to understand?

I didn’t exist before I was born, and I can’t say those 15 billion years were unpleasant. What would make you think another non-existent state would be any different?

What makes you believe that you didn't exist before you were born?

What makes you believe that there is such a thing as a "non-existent" state?
 
My assumption is that you think everyone's views should be considered and respected with equal weight. When it comes to religion, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.

And what is "the solution" for those damned people with the gall to believe in a religion?

I vehemently proclaim my intolerance of the purposefully irrational people who purposefully interfere with my life.

And those people are "religious"?

All of them?
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :
It's not a bad thing for everybody.

Arrogant, pompous, self-important people actually need to do that in order to lend importance to themselves.
So, let's see ... that's humorless, angry, snide, stupid, dishonest, hypocritical, and totally lacking in self-awareness ... I'm impressed that you managed to display almost 30% of your grosser personality defects in such a short post.

I'm not as impressed with yours.

You can do better than that, can't you Doctor?
 
...What are the success rates of religious predictions?

Overall, I'm not sure.

But like always, Kenny, you always seem to make the point for your debate opponents:

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22

Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.
Matthew 5:11-12
 
If you find facts to be insulting, then I agree, this forum is NOT the place for you. Maybe the reason religious people are so "insulted" here is just that -- we deal in facts, logic, and reason, and all of these are veritable poison to the religious.
I don't find facts to be insulting, I find your arrogance detrimental to atheists as a group. People with your superior attitude are the reason believers often feel so maligned by atheists and feel negatively towards them as a group. You may not care what they think of you, but the aggressive approach will benefit neither side.
Wrong. The most popular threads on this forum are by far the ones with lots of heat.
If by "most popular" you mean receive the most replies, you might want to note how easily CFLarsen and one opponent can fill several pages within days.
 
People with your superior attitude are the reason believers often feel so maligned by atheists and feel negatively towards them as a group.

I don't agree, one of most religion's values is exclusivity, and that's why the religious tend to feel negatively towards anyone outside of their religions.
 
How can something that isn't provable be proven to the point that "I" am "wrong" for maintaining faith in the testimony of others?
I gave you some examples of how it happened for me. It was the continued lack of evidence that God did any of the things it was claimed He did. Obviously that doesn't "prove" there is no God, just that my previous beliefs were looking so unlikely to be true that I stopped believing in them.

For you, is it all about "proving" the Huntster wrong for believing something?
No, it is about understanding why people believe what they believe. Do you just have a "feeling" that it must be right, or is it something that you can decide based on the preponderance of evidence? If it is the former and you are incapable of being convinced by any evidence, then either a) you can only be convinced by emotional appeals, or b)you can't be convinced at all, making you a mindless drone. (Note: The same is true for an atheist who says that no evidence could convince him there is a God.) If your beliefs are based on evidence, then my question is, "What evidence would tip the scales the other way for you?"
Is that important to you?

Why?
As I say, I am interested in why people believe what they believe. It helps me understand them better. Yes, I find that understanding people better is important.

Do you find it difficult to answer a question of why you believe what you believe? I would think you would want to know yourself.
 
Anacoluthon64
Also, Gardner makes no attempt to assert the actuality of god's existence itself (and thereby he avoids ending up in all sorts of hot water); he merely provides a utilitarian reason for why he himself holds such a belief.

On page 222 of 'The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener' Gardner closes his chapter on "FAITH: Why I am not an Atheist" by quoting from Unamuno:
Wishing that God may exist, and acting and feeling as if He did exist. And desiring God's existence and acting comfortably with this desire, is the means by which we create God--that is, whereby God creates himself in us, manifests Himself to us, opens and reveals himself to us. For God goes out to meet him who seeks Him with love and by love, and hides Himself from him who searches for Him with the cold and loveless reason...
-snip-

I know that I sound harsh and extremist on this.
Unless believers can accept something like: "faith in God may not be the best thing for everyone" or "maybe atheism is a better way than belief for some people" - someone is sacrificed. Because the harsh reality is that faith in an immanent god is not the best thing for some people. To believe in the sort of God that we create within our selves, where does that leave us to answer those who kill because their god directs them to? In love of course, the word in which some of the worst atrocities are accomplished.

Gardner's view seems to be that if we only let go of reason for a while, we might find god. I am saying that reason is like a rock in a great storm of chaos and irrationality. Doesn't he understand that if some people let go they will simply be destroyed or worse, be the source of great destruction?

So I stand my ground, and I think that I do understand. I only ask that Christians accept that the way of belief and faith is not always the best way. That would seem easy, but religion is like having one product to sell so therefore everyone must need it...

infornography
Just because you or I do not need a comforting delusion or faith based belief does not mean that others do not need it in their lives. Many people feel the need for faith and there is insufficient evidence for me to proclaim that it is merely a security blanket or actual sprituality so I withhold my judgement of them. Even if I were sure that it was nothing more than a crutch or security blanket, I would still respect them as people and respect their beliefs as long as they respected my position as well.
This is well said. I am not sure that respecting our position of unbelief is compatible with many religions. Maybe as a means to a greater end of finding faith?
It seems to go a little like this: If each person contains within them the ability to know the truth of God, then to reject God is to willingly lie in the face of truth, or reject truth. Such an act is evil, evil must be overcome and ultimately destroyed. Etc etc.

Religion is ultimately an authoritarian epistemology. It may be of a greater good for humanity, but what of the small minority that it is not? They are defined as angels or demons, saints or heretics.
 
I don't agree, one of most religion's values is exclusivity, and that's why the religious tend to feel negatively towards anyone outside of their religions.
Yes, the devoutly religious. But the massive majority of the religious aren't as influenced by their specific religion's values as much as psychological factors such as Outgroup homogeneity bias.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster :
For you, is it all about "proving" the Huntster wrong for believing something?

No, it is about understanding why people believe what they believe. Do you just have a "feeling" that it must be right, or is it something that you can decide based on the preponderance of evidence?...

I have enough evidence for me. Obviously, it might not be enough for others.

To each his/her own.

...If your beliefs are based on evidence, then my question is, "What evidence would tip the scales the other way for you?"

Death, then darkness...............

....Do you find it difficult to answer a question of why you believe what you believe? I would think you would want to know yourself....

Not at all.

But I find it absolutely impossible for others to accept the answers I give.
 
I have enough evidence for me. Obviously, it might not be enough for others.
But I find it absolutely impossible for others to accept the answers I give.
I still haven't seen what evidence would convince you, except for this;
Death, then darkness................
which means you can only be convinced if there is an afterlife in which to recognize "darkness", which is to say no evidence can convince you while you are alive. I figured as much.
 

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