Guantanamo inmates commit suicide

[Elind]

I'm urging you to ensure that that very process you espouse, a fair criminal justice system including a prompt trial, be enacted immediately if not sooner for the Gitmo prisoners. And to be seen to be doing so. Do you not agree this is desirable?

No. I gave reasons I believe are reasonable. Please tell me, specifically where I am wrong.

 

[Zep]

Tell us some of those facts that you have about innocence, for example, and tell us without further bull exactly why you think our people are holding them just for the hell of it.

I don't think anyone is arguing guilt or innocence - we are arguing process. We simply cannot tell if they are guilty or innocent because they have not been tried and don't look like they will be any time soon! It's been four years in some cases now...

If this was YOUR court case, and YOU were languishing in the cells for three or four years without a trial, wouldn't YOU be mighty pissed off if YOU couldn't see one happening any time in the future? Even if you were guilty?

Does the phrase "piss or get off the pot" make it clearer?

 

[Elind]

I don't think anyone is arguing guilt or innocence - we are arguing process. We simply cannot tell if they are guilty or innocent because they have not been tried and don't look like they will be any time soon! It's been four years in some cases now...

If this was YOUR court case, and YOU were languishing in the cells for three or four years without a trial, wouldn't YOU be mighty pissed off if YOU couldn't see one happening any time in the future? Even if you were guilty?

Does the phrase "piss or get off the pot" make it clearer?

Not what I call a specific answer to a post that made two of my fingertips sore.

If I was guilty I'd be pissed that I got caught. You seem to think I'd be pissed only because I haven't had my psycho rant day in court so I can recruit more of the believers.

If I was innocent I would be really really sad that I chose that day to herd the goats (goats are more common than sheep. I correct my earlier post), and I would be really mad at all those college educated interrogators who keep asking be about this OBL guy. (By the way, what is college?)

 

[Zep]

No. I gave reasons I believe are reasonable. Please tell me, specifically where I am wrong.

Even arch-bastard and prolific murderer Stalin used to send zeks to the gulags ASAP with at least a show-trial. You are demonstrating you are not prepared to do even that much.

Doesn't that bother you?

 

[a_unique_person]

I strongly support the principle of rewards for wanted blokes, or gals for that matter.

And how do you know that they really are wanted, and not just some taxi driver who has kidnapped?

 

[Mycroft]

Of course it is absurd! So I'm glad to see you are getting the the point. It's quite absurd that people can be accused of crimes, snatched from another country by force, and imprisoned in close confinement another for years or even indefinitely without trial on the unfounded say-so of some unknown accusers, or even just for reward! But this is exactly what has happened with Gitmo, OK?

Sometimes rewards are offered in the US too, but the police don't just go and grab whoever is fingered. The mere fact that a reward is given is not evidence that a person was falsley accused.

No, quite the opposite. I'm urging you to ensure that that very process you espouse, a fair criminal justice system including a prompt trial, be enacted immediately if not sooner for the Gitmo prisoners. And to be seen to be doing so. Do you not agree this is desirable?

No. These people are not the same as common criminals. You don’t wage an international war against civilization and then claim constitutional protections.

 

[Zep]

If I was guilty I'd be pissed that I got caught. You seem to think I'd be pissed only because I haven't had my psycho rant day in court so I can recruit more of the believers.

So? You get a psycho-rant in court. Happens every day - look at Saddam; he's off his tiny trolley, but do you see the crowds gathering to HIS cause much now that he's facing court and having a spray? Because he is being shown up for what he really is - an insane little warlord, guilty of all sorts of horrible crimes.

Oh, btw, HE'S getting his day in court...so what about the rest of them?

If I was innocent I would be really really sad that I chose that day to herd the goats (goats are more common than sheep. I correct my earlier post), and I would be really mad at all those college educated interrogators who keep asking be about this OBL guy. (By the way, what is college?)

Yep, let's all stereotype them to subhumanise them. The only good Gitmo prisoner is a dead Afghani goat-herder who didn't speak the language and complained.

I asked you to consider if it was YOU in their situation - incarcerated without trial for years. Have you a reasoned response?

 

[Zep]

Sometimes rewards are offered in the US too, but the police don't just go and grab whoever is fingered. The mere fact that a reward is given is not evidence that a person was falsely accused.

Whoopsie. Available evidence contradicts this. Did you read the reference I gave about the two Australian suspects detained in Gitmo? And do you think that is the only case?

Revolutions are the perfect time to have your argumentative neighbour "dealt with". What's another prisoner, another body, when you can get someone else to deal with them for you? And even make untold money out of it? Peh!

No. These people are not the same as common criminals. You don’t wage an international war against civilization and then claim constitutional protections.

So you propose abandoning civilisation yourself in order to combat this activity? If you do, what then makes you any better than them? Or any more worthy of enforcing your way on them? Claus asked where "the line" between them and you was - looks like you want to eradicate that line...

They DO have rights, human rights, international rights (much as you might detest them); Gitmo shows you are simply choosing to ignore them.

Like I said before, if they are so goddamned guilty, show the world: Try them, convict them, punish them. Don't do it backwards, like now.

 

[Elind]

And how do you know that they really are wanted, and not just some taxi driver who has kidnapped?

And I am to believe that "our" people just kidnap taxi drivers and then spent millions to fly them to Cuba and feed them for 4 years and give them the only medical care they have had all their lives, just for fun?

 

[Elind]

I asked you to consider if it was YOU in their situation - incarcerated without trial for years. Have you a reasoned response?

I asked you to comment on a number of very practical and realistic issues.

You have not.

I've been here longer than you, but you have 5 times the number of posts. I'm begining to think you have a competition with your few fellow Aussies for scores and just don't have time to respond with the intellect you pretent to have; just the slogan skills.

We haven't had much exchange the past 4 years (your years) but I'm starting to think it's better for me to revert to dismissing you as an irritant.

 

[Mycroft]

Whoopsie. Available evidence contradicts this. Did you read the reference I gave about the two Australian suspects detained in Gitmo? And do you think that is the only case?

I must have missed your evidence. Please present it again.

Revolutions are the perfect time to have your argumentative neighbour "dealt with". What's another prisoner, another body, when you can get someone else to deal with them for you? And even make untold money out of it? Peh!

Evidence?

So you propose abandoning civilisation yourself in order to combat this activity? If you do, what then makes you any better than them? Or any more worthy of enforcing your way on them?

I think there is some middle ground between abandoning civilization entirely and simply recognizing that these people are something other than common criminals or POWs.

…Claus asked where "the line" between them and you was - looks like you want to eradicate that line...

Straw-man.

They DO have rights, human rights, international rights (much as you might detest them); Gitmo shows you are simply choosing to ignore them.

I’m not willing to assert rights not in evidence.

Like I said before, if they are so goddamned guilty, show the world: Try them, convict them, punish them. Don't do it backwards, like now.

Sure. Unless, possibly, they have more value in other ways.

 

[Zep]

And I am to believe that "our" people just kidnap taxi drivers and then spent millions to fly them to Cuba and feed them for 4 years and give them the only medical care they have had all their lives, just for fun?

*sigh* Have you read the link gave about the Australian Gitmo detainees? You may be surprised to learn that your incredulity is badly misplaced...

 

[Zep]

I asked you to comment on a number of very practical and realistic issues.

You have not.

I've been here longer than you, but you have 5 times the number of posts. I'm begining to think you have a competition with your few fellow Aussies for scores and just don't have time to respond with the intellect you pretent to have; just the slogan skills.

We haven't had much exchange the past 4 years (your years) but I'm starting to think it's better for me to revert to dismissing you as an irritant.

Please yourself. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Or perhaps the view from outside the burning house is just better than that from the inside...

 

[Elind]

Please yourself. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Or perhaps the view from outside the burning house is just better than that from the inside...

You could have attempted a debate. You choose not to. Thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[Zep]

I must have missed your evidence. Please present it again.

Please go find it yourself. It's a thumping big paragraph-sized link. Better still, look up the case of Mamdou Habib.

I think there is some middle ground between abandoning civilization entirely and simply recognizing that these people are something other than common criminals or POWs.

I agree. But simply dropping them in a hole and deliberately trying to forget them without even the appearance of due process of any sort is simply not defensible.

I’m not willing to assert rights not in evidence.

Last I heard, the US was a member of the United Nations. Now, I'm well aware of the contempt in which you and others hold that organisation, but each member of the UN has agreed to abide by its covenants, namely...

The United Nations
INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON
CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS

...

Article 9

1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.
2. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.
3. Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgment.
4. Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.
5. Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html#Article 9

Sure. Unless, possibly, they have more value in other ways.

Are we talking Soylent Green here???


ETA; Fix link a bit

 

[Zep]

You could have attempted a debate. You choose not to. Thank you for the enlightenment.

You could have listened to someone else's pov without telling them they are what they are not, and then deriding them for it.

 

[Mycroft]

Please go find it yourself. It's a thumping big paragraph-sized link. Better still, look up the case of Mamdou Habib.

He’s been the topic of discussion on JREF before. He’s not innocent, he’s just inept.

I agree. But simply dropping them in a hole and deliberately trying to forget them without even the appearance of due process of any sort is simply not defensible.

A military tribunal counts as due process.

Last I heard, the US was a member of the United Nations. Now, I'm well aware of the contempt in which you and others hold that organisation, but each member of the UN has agreed to abide by its covenants, namely...
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html#Article 9

”No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.”

Who said these arrests are arbitrary?

”…shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release…”

I believe a military officer qualifies as an other officer authorized by law.

”…Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful…”

Again, I believe a tribunal qualifies as such a court.

I think the issue here isn’t that the law isn’t being followed, but that you don’t like how it’s being followed.

Are we talking Soylent Green here???

I’m sure that’s not Halal. I was thinking intel.

 

[rjh01]

For Mycroft. Can you please define promptly as it is used in your post. Use the Guantanamo inmates as an example to illustrate your point.

 

[rjh01]

For light relief another BBC article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5074216.stm

The International Committee of the Red Cross is to make a special visit to Guantanamo Bay following the suicides of three detainees over the weekend.

 

[Mycroft]

For Mycroft. Can you please define promptly as it is used in your post. Use the Guantanamo inmates as an example to illustrate your point.

Sure. The prisoner is brought promptly before an "other officer authorized by law" before the decision is even made to send him to Gitmo. Once there, ongoing trials can be read about in this website:

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/gitmo/