Quartz And Limestone: Recording Minerals?

[cloudshipsrule]

3) If anything is recorded, how is it retransmitted? Where does the power come from? How does the rock decide what to transmit or when?

When quartz is compressed, it generates an electrical signal. Some buildings, especially hotels, tend to compress the earth beneath them more than smaller buildings. Thus more hauntings in old hotels. Heavier buildings 'force' more memories out of the quartz as electrical impulses.

This would also explain why most house hauntings occur in two story homes. They are heavier than one story homes!

Theoretically the transmission would last as long as the quartz was compressed, because as signals are transmitted they are also re-recorded on other, neighboring quartz deposits, which subsequently re-transmit when the first recording is finished. The math gets complicated at this point, but it seems to work. Also, this wouldn't be possible if there wasn't as much nitrogen in our atmosphere as there is.

 

[Starthinker]

Please send me any sample of rock from any area and I will "read" the memories from it by channeling the spirit of Edgar Cayce. Please enclose $50 with every sample and the sample needs to be about the size of a quarter, otherwise it's hard to smooth out the driveway.

 

[MRC_Hans]

When quartz is compressed, it generates an electrical signal. Some buildings, especially hotels, tend to compress the earth beneath them more than smaller buildings. Thus more hauntings in old hotels. Heavier buildings 'force' more memories out of the quartz as electrical impulses.

Piezo electricity. However, that is not a signal, it is only a potential. If the pressure changes, the potential changes. Of course, unless the building is sitting on a large single crystal, it will be all chaotic, and ... how is this a recording?

This would also explain why most house hauntings occur in two story homes. They are heavier than one story homes!

Theoretically the transmission would last as long as the quartz was compressed, because as signals are transmitted they are also re-recorded on other, neighboring quartz deposits, which subsequently re-transmit when the first recording is finished. The math gets complicated at this point, but it seems to work. Also, this wouldn't be possible if there wasn't as much nitrogen in our atmosphere as there is.

I don't know what yuu mean by the nitrogen remark, but all this is not a recording. Granted that very theoretically, there are some potentials present in the ground below a building, which reflect the pressure from the building (all this is very high-impedance and will surely be shorted out by moisture in the ground, except in desert rock formations, but let's us for get that), but all this is just a reflection of present conditions. There is no conceivable recording mechanism there.

Hans

 

[Minkster]

I read something about this in a Jenny Randles book 'Time Travel' years ago. Will try and dig it out. She claimed that this was a reason a particular small town in yorkshire was prone to ghosts (the type of stone used for house building in the area).

 

[Dr B]

I have a colleague who knows more about this than me, but as I understand it quartz tends to cancel itself out in rock resulting in little or no field.

Other substances like magnetite might be more interesting to study - as when it vibrates (say due to fault lines / tectonics etc) it would produce ripples in the magnetic field that vary in sympathy with the vibration (specularite is another possibility but is very weak). Low frequency and low-amplitude fields do have consequences for experience under certain circumstances. However, this mechanism remains speculative - what the energy would be around a person from the rock remains unclear.

I did find a paper somewhere that claimed wet rocks were better than dry for producing fields under pressure - but i cannot remember what the rocks were made of.....i will try to dig it out.

For all the excellent reasons above - this research has nothing to do with ghosts, but energetic aspects of the haunt experience from geological sources.....

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have a colleague who knows more about this than me, but as I understand it quartz tends to cancel itself out in rock resulting in little or no field.

It most certainly will. Whenever quarz crystals are used for piezoelectric devices, they are single crystals, or having an aligned structure of crystals.

And iven if some big single crystals were present in a given location, it would still not record past events. At most there would be a structure of potentials reflecting the present pressure conditions.

Other substances like magnetite might be more interesting to study - as when it vibrates (say due to fault lines / tectonics etc) it would produce ripples in the magnetic field that vary in sympathy with the vibration (specularite is another possibility but is very weak).

But where would the recording mechanism be?

Low frequency and low-amplitude fields do have consequences for experience under certain circumstances.

No, they don't. You are thinking about audio waves. Magnets make magnetic fields.

However, this mechanism remains speculative - what the energy would be around a person from the rock remains unclear.

No, it remains implausible. You are bathed in electromagnetic fields of all frequencies and a wide range of intensities, 24-7. Do you feel anything? If a field emanated from rocks that was strong enough to somehow affect a human directly, we whould detect it by numerous other means. For instance, it would most certainly play havoc with outr communication equipment. In other words, if such fields existed, we would know about it.

I did find a paper somewhere that claimed wet rocks were better than dry for producing fields under pressure - but i cannot remember what the rocks were made of.....i will try to dig it out.

Dig what out, the rocks? .... Sorry.

Well, somebody heard that wet rocks would short out any signals, and made up the theory that dry rocks were better. Since no actual measurements have obviously been made, such statements can only be putative. ....And it doesn't even fit observations, since hauntings are mostly reported on dark and stormy nights, not on hot, bright, dry days.

For all the excellent reasons above - this research has nothing to do with ghosts, but energetic aspects of the haunt experience from geological sources.....

Research? What research? You mean "this fabulation"?

Hans

 

[Dr B]

Hans I have to congradulate you on misunderstanding almost everything I wrote - quite a feat!!!

Let me try again, but before you think you know what I am writing, just take the time to read it, and you will see I am actually agreeing with you - but was adding some further information as well.

OK, yes we agree quartz will cancel itself out in rock - quite true.

When I was discussing magnetite - it was not in the context of recordings (where did i say that?). So please allow me to clear that up here. Perhaps I should have made it clearer in the last post. If you take a magnet and vibrate it at a given frequency you get magentic fields that vary in sympathy with it. Now they will be weak, but they will be present.

The suggestion some have made is that maybe where there is a lot of natural magnetite, and a force to induce vibration (fault lines etc) - that anomlalous complex fields could be present (nothing to do with recordings - just the presence of fields). If they are complex enough they may well have the capacity to interact with neural processes under certain circumstances. Again nothing to do with recordings at all. This is just a suggesstion at present and certainly not mine.

I have no idea if the fields would have sufficient energy or be complex enough around the human brain, as data would need to be gathered, - but i did say this clearly before (so I am not sure what you are saying here...or to whom). The magnetite idea has more going for it than quartz - but is likely to still turn out to be inaccurate....

You are completely wrong concerning me meaning audio waves - trust me - I meant complex magnetic fields. There is no evidence for effects of weak audio waves on brain mechanisms (i.e., the nonsense on infrasound is just that, nonsense). However, there is evidence that complex magnetic fields can interact with neural processes. Google the journal Bioelectromagnetics and enjoy yourself. See the work of Cook, Dobson, Thomas, and Persinger for some evidence of such effects.

It is not implausible at all, as you are not bathed in complex fields - most are simple and natural - there is a difference. You need complexity over space and time - they work a treat.

Just because you are not aware of this research - does not make it fabulation. You may disagree, with good reason - but it would be wrong to mischaracterise the debate by saying there was no evidence - there most certainly is.

For my part, i find it hard to see how rocks could do anything like what is being claimed (see, i agree with you) - but certain types of magnetic fields can impact on human experience. My hunch is artificial sources and other objects are more magnetically salient than rocks...but heh, more data needed.

The main point of my first post is, although geological sources of influecne are likely to be small, looking at quartz seems a folly for all the good reasons you have given. However, does this mean geology has no role to play in strange experience, or just that we need to look at other geological substances.....thats why I mentioned magnetite - purely as a tangent, no more no less.

 

[Dr B]

btw the wet rock thing i was thinking of was from a paper.....i will try to dig that paper out, I cannot remember too much about it but you might find it interesting.

Again, there are academic papers on this even if you are not aware of them. However, this by no means, makes the claims right....

 

[sat556]

The suggestion some have made is that maybe where there is a lot of natural magnetite, and a force to induce vibration (fault lines etc) - that anomlalous complex fields could be present (nothing to do with recordings - just the presence of fields). If they are complex enough they may well have the capacity to interact with neural processes under certain circumstances.

Have you been reading Electric UFOs?

(i.e., the nonsense on infrasound is just that, nonsense).

Which nonsense, exactly, are you referring to?

 

[gnome]

Of course crystals keep memories... they are clear and somewhat more rare than ordinary rocks, so they look nifty, so they're magical.

 

[sat556]

Of course crystals keep memories... they are clear and somewhat more rare than ordinary rocks, so they look nifty, so they're magical.

I'm taking that one out of my bedroom...

 

[Tricky]

All rocks store an incredible amount of information. Magnitite may be even stronger in this aspect in that it can store information about magnetic fields (as can any rock containing ferromagnetic compounds). But to suggest it stores information on souls is, to say the least, a bit of a stretch. To demonstrate, I propose a simple experiment.

Take a piece of highly sensitive magnetic material. I recommend magnetic tape. Get the highest quality tape you can find. Get ten people who are well known to you to assist you. By random selection, (double blind, of course) have one of the ten people handle the tape. Have him touch it, hold it close to himself, whatever he likes (provided it doesn't destroy the tape). Now take the tape and play it in a high-quality audio device. See if you can tell which of the people handled it.

If a material designed to capture magnetic information cannot even trap information by being in close proximity to a living person, how can anyone reasonably expect a very poor recording material to save information on a dead person?

Of course, you could try laying the tape on top of a randomly-selected grave if you think dead people are better at this sort of thing.

 

[Dr B]

electric ufos???? I have no idea what your talking about - please do elaborate

Tricky - I would not say that rocks store information (but I am no expert in geology) - I would say that certain rocks can, under certain circumstances, generate distortions in the magnetic field (due to either pressure or vibrations etc). These distortions may have their own impact on human perception - its a bit of a leap - but not as implausible as some have suggested. Indeed modern earthquake detection is moving towards detecting magnetic signatures as opposed to just vibration - though this is in its infancy.

I agree about magnetite - as I understand it magnetite is the most naturally magnetitic substance (is this correct?). So depending on density, availability, proximity, etc, low amplitude (though not too low) complex distortions could occur....at least theoretically. It does of course need testing in the field but you get the point. Of course to work it would predict that some cases of hautning would need to have magnetite present in the local geology and possibly the building materials. A simple predicition easily tested....

Low frequency, complex magnetic fields can interact with neural processes in individuals - particularly those with lower inhibitory conditions like eplilepsy, migraine with aura etc. However, simple fields seem to have no consequences at all (simple constant sine waves and basic DC fields). Interestingly, scientists have now found biogenic magnetite in deep brain structures (hipocampus / amygdala) which may be a source of interaction between field and brain - but again its early days.

I have never at any point here suggested magnetite stores souls.. ...though this maybe a misperception from the woo's. I am talking about magnetism and sources of magnetic distortions with the capacity to influence perception (hallucination) - thats all.

Sat556 - the nonsense I refer to is the case argued for Infrasound by Vic Tandy and colleagues in the UK. I have a paper coming out soon that argues against infrasound, at least based on current evidence.

 

[Dr B]

Hans (and others)

You may find these links of interest.

http://www.biophysics.uwa.edu.au/magnetite.html

http://www.biophysics.uwa.edu.au/Jon.html

http://www.keele.ac.uk/research/istm/EEG.html

 

[Dr B]

Oh and one more...

http://www.cmmp.ucl.ac.uk/~qap/biomin/Biomin.htm

Anyway - calcium and possibly biogenic magnetite seem to be involved in magnetically induced changes of neural signatures....so the brain CAN be influenced by such fields.

Persinger uses even weaker fields - but they are also much more complex... These also seem to have effects on experience.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hans I have to congradulate you on misunderstanding almost everything I wrote - quite a feat!!!

We aim to please.

OK, yes we agree quartz will cancel itself out in rock - quite true.

OK.

When I was discussing magnetite - it was not in the context of recordings (where did i say that?).

We were discussing recordings. Excuse me for assuming that your statement was relevant for the topic at hand. I shall be more careful in the future.

So please allow me to clear that up here. Perhaps I should have made it clearer in the last post. If you take a magnet and vibrate it at a given frequency you get magentic fields that vary in sympathy with it. Now they will be weak, but they will be present.

Did I deny that?

The suggestion some have made is that maybe where there is a lot of natural magnetite, and a force to induce vibration (fault lines etc) - that anomlalous complex fields could be present (nothing to do with recordings - just the presence of fields).

To be quite precise, the fields will be present without vibration as well, but with vibration, a wave propagation can be speculated. A field is something different from a wave.

If they are complex enough they may well have the capacity to interact with neural processes under certain circumstances. Again nothing to do with recordings at all. This is just a suggesstion at present and certainly not mine.

It is more like unfounded speculation.

I have no idea if the fields would have sufficient energy or be complex enough around the human brain, as data would need to be gathered,

Where did you get the idea that complexity made it more likely to influence the brain? As for energy, if there was any appreciable energy present, the phenomenon would be known. We are routinely measuring and recording extremely weak wave energies in the relevant spectrum.

- but i did say this clearly before (so I am not sure what you are saying here...or to whom). The magnetite idea has more going for it than quartz - but is likely to still turn out to be inaccurate....

I'd say it has 10 times more going for it. The quartz idea has zero going for it .

You are completely wrong concerning me meaning audio waves -

Sorry, just trying to make some sense of it. Won't happen again.

trust me - I meant complex magnetic fields. There is no evidence for effects of weak audio waves on brain mechanisms (i.e., the nonsense on infrasound is just that, nonsense).

It is? How do you know?

However, there is evidence that complex magnetic fields can interact with neural processes. Google the journal Bioelectromagnetics and enjoy yourself. See the work of Cook, Dobson, Thomas, and Persinger for some evidence of such effects.

Search for "Coghill" on this forum, and you will find out why I am more than a little skeptical about Bioelectromagnetics.

Explain to me, how do slight vibrations in the crust of the earth (slight enough not to be noticed directly) create more effect than simply walking through the fields?

It is not implausible at all, as you are not bathed in complex fields - most are simple and natural - there is a difference.

Look around you. My guess is that you will see:

1) At least one computer.
2) One telephone.
3) One cellphone.
4) Radio, TV.
5) Several light and power installations.

Several of these emit extremely complex wave phenomenon.

You need complexity over space and time - they work a treat.

A what? Evidence.

Just because you are not aware of this research - does not make it fabulation. You may disagree, with good reason - but it would be wrong to mischaracterise the debate by saying there was no evidence - there most certainly is.

No. There is evidence that certain fields interact with the brain, yes. Hardly surprising since the brain works partly with electrical signals, but there is no evidence that specific images and the like can be projected into the brain by any kind of fields or wave phenomenon.

For my part, i find it hard to see how rocks could do anything like what is being claimed (see, i agree with you) - but certain types of magnetic fields can impact on human experience. My hunch is artificial sources and other objects are more magnetically salient than rocks...but heh, more data needed. e]

The main point of my first post is, although geological sources of influecne are likely to be small, looking at quartz seems a folly for all the good reasons you have given. However, does this mean geology has no role to play in strange experience, or just that we need to look at other geological substances.....thats why I mentioned magnetite - purely as a tangent, no more no less.

Hunch. Hard to see. Unlikely. Only a tangent. Folly. Those are all your words. Excuse me, but why should we bother with this idea at all?

We have no reason to think that ghost observations are coming from anywhere but people's minds in the first place. Why should we consider any physical explanations for them that are, in your own evaluation, to be charitable, extremely far-fetched?

Hans

 

[Dr B]

We were discussing recordings. Excuse me for assuming that your statement was relevant for the topic at hand. I shall be more careful in the future

I appreciate that - but I was alluding to the confusion woo's make between talking about 'recordings' as oppsed to, say a magnetic energy - which is nothing like a recording. At no point did I use the term 'recording' - and you made the clear mistake that I did. I just wanted to clear that up.

To be quite precise, the fields will be present without vibration as well, but with vibration, a wave propagation can be speculated. A field is something different from a wave.

Yes, precise and clearer. The fields will be present - but the vibration etc, would cause time-based variability and this gives the complexity needed if any neuro effects are to occur. It is the constant change in the field - not the presence of it per-se that is crucial.

It is more like unfounded speculation.

It is not unfounded (and I have explained to you why that is so), though the idea magnetite could do it is certainly a speculation. We know magnetic fields can have effects (please read the basic links above) - the question now can become one of sources. I too am skeptical of geological sources in this context - but magnetite has more going for it at the moment. As I said, it requires more data and may well turn out to be wrong. But you simply saying it is - is not sufficient evidence for me....sorry...

Where did you get the idea that complexity made it more likely to influence the brain?

25 years worth of research - but dont let that stop you As I said before look at the work of Cook, Persinger, see also Bell, Dobson. It is the changing fields that are crucial - not uniformed ones - again please read the links for a basic insight and take it from there.....happy reading These findings will not go away because you want to ignore them

I'd say it has 10 times more going for it. The quartz idea has zero going for it .

I agree - which is why i mentioned it in the first place.....

Search for "Coghill" on this forum, and you will find out why I am more than a little skeptical about Bioelectromagnetics.

I have not read that yet - but thanks for the link (will do). If it relates to Roger Coghill research - I agree that is dodgy - but it is not what I am talking about at all. If it is nothing to do with Coghill, then I apologise and will read it shortly.....please ignore the comment..

Explain to me, how do slight vibrations in the crust of the earth (slight enough not to be noticed directly) create more effect than simply walking through the fields?

Hans - you are mistaken. I am not making this claim myself. I merely raised awareness about it, for discussion. The links above will help show that mag fields (weak and changing ones) can impact on the brain in a very real way - that is all I am saying here. Whether geology can do it - I am not sure, but if it can a prime candidate would be magnitite. So the mechanism of interaction between fields and brain has been shown (which goes against your previous comments) but whether geology can do it - dunno??? Point is, some suggest its a possibility. Its worth a look - though the quartz / recording idea is, as you have nicely put it earlier, complete tosh.

Look around you. My guess is that you will see:

1) At least one computer.
2) One telephone.
3) One cellphone.
4) Radio, TV.
5) Several light and power installations.

Several of these emit extremely complex wave phenomenon.

Wrong!!!! - they are not complex at all - could you please explain to me how, for instance a 50Hz (UK) sine wave is complex? I have measured all these devices with my own high-speed sensitive digital magnetometers - they are quite basic fields actually (simple sine waves etc). Complex fields are well described by Cook, Persinger, Dobson, Thomas, etc - I did mention this earlier - please take a look rather than just keep misunderstanding me. They are non-uniformed - the well known "Thomas-pattern" is one example. Again there is plenty of evidence. Its hardly an elegant argument to simply demand evidence when a simple google search will provide you with what you need - its all there

There is evidence that certain fields interact with the brain, yes. Hardly surprising since the brain works partly with electrical signals, but there is no evidence that specific images and the like can be projected into the brain by any kind of fields or wave phenomenon.

Now you are shifting the debate. I am glad you now agree that mag fields can impact on the brain - could you tell me where I said they can project images into the brain???? I think I missed that bit. You are now asking me to answer a claim I NEVER made in the first place, why? I think you are reading much more into what others are saying, than what they are actually writing. Please provide evidence for that statement.

Excuse me, but why should we bother with this idea at all?

For all the reasons I have given and it is easy to test. Dont get me wrong - I am skeptical of it - but some data and numbers would be helpful here.

We have no reason to think that ghost observations are coming from anywhere but people's minds in the first place. Why should we consider any physical explanations for them that are, in your own evaluation, to be charitable, extremely far-fetched

You misunderstand (again), I agree with the hallucination / delsuion interpretation of ghosts - but we need to work on a more explicit functional account - saying its all in the mind is just a description - its not an explanation. Physical explanations should be considered because they are relevant in some cases (published cases). However, remember magnetic fields / brain accounts are not total explanations - just a potential account for some experiences. I think you need to catch up with this area of research. .

Based on your new comments I would say you now accept that such fields can impact on the brain and experience, just that geological sources are unlikely to be responsible. Would that be roughly correct? I would generally concur - but add, that some more research would be illuminating.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I'm sorry, but I seem to miss what you are arguing, here. This is a thread about the claim that (some) ghost observations might be attributed to a geological recording effect, and I have tried to discuss just that.

Now you seem to be saying that you are discussing whether certain geological phenomenon could produce some (not ghost-observation related, not recording related) effects in the brain.

Now, if we were discussing the possibility that animals (or even humans) could presense earthquakes, or something like that, I think I might follow you, but in this thread ... What is it you are arguing?

And about complexity of emissions: Do you think your computer, cellphone, or digital phone is only emitting 50hz sine? You are in for a slight surprise, then. Even your mains wiring, with light dimmers, mains signalling devices, and switch-mode power supplies connected, is carrying vastly more complex signals.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Dr. B: Now I have been trough the links you provide. They are all about magnetite content of human tissue and its possible use for diagnosing neural disorders, plus some abstracts about mapping deposits using magnetic indicators.

What exactly has this to do with anything we are currently discussing (assuming we are discussing even roughly the same subject)?

At least, the material yielded a definite figure for the fields in question, namely 4mT. They call it a "relatively weak" field, but as electromagnetic emissions go, it is hardly a weak field. At least it would be easily detectable, even in equipment set up for other purposes. So I think we can safely assume that such fields, arising from geological activity, would have been well-known, had they existed.

Hans

 

[Dr B]

Hi Hans

Yes, you are quite right I did introduce a tangental aspect - but one I feel Woowoo's get wrong all the time so I thought it was relevant as well. Let me explain.

I think, on top of all your excellent points above (and those of others) that the 'stone-tape' type nonsense borrows and hijacks concepts from other areas of science in the usual poor-rationale woo way. A hodge-podge if you will. One of the pinched ideas is the relationship between rocks and energy - energy meant here in the usual woo way (i.e., who knows what the hell they mean) - can cause recordings.

When I push them to be more specific - they come up with the quartz stuff - which we know is unlikely to be a viable account. More recently, woo's have been following geological advancements on magnetite and other magnetic substances - claiming this as the natural 'energy' for recording. Of course this is complete nonsense.

However, one really speculative possibilty could be that if magnetite was present in large quantities - maybe the background magentic field would be distorted in some way - and maybe we might get time-based variations of interest in them - we know magnetic fields induce altered perceptions so maybe there is a link there (note a specualtive maybe...). This of course has nothing to do with woowoo notions of recordings......

I dont think the magnetic variations will be high enough, but hey, i would have to take some measurements to see what we are dealing with - my hunch is the variability will be too weak.

Anyway, I think we have cleared that one up.

I have measured the fields around my home and office and there are many frequencies present near monitors etc - but you need to be near and the frequencies are very simple. The mains is simple.....at least based on the measurements I have made so far. The multi-frequency fields are still pretty basic - as they are constantly present and do not vary in amplitude that much over time...nothing like the complex fields the authors above talk about. Check stuff like the Thomas pattern as an example....