Marriage Debate

Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Nothing is being taken away from same-sex couples. It is not and has never been their right to marry. It wasn't even thought of until fairly recently.

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, but I have to jump in. Let's set the Way-Back Machine for sometime in the 1950's, and restate the above quote.

"Marriage has always been between a man and a woman of the same race. Nothing is being taken away from mixed-race couples. It is not and has never been their right to marry. It wasn't even thought of until fairly recently."

Do you now see the problem?

Oh, and one more.
Hardenbergh said:
I find terms like "fags", "queers", "dykes" very offensive. In fact, it makes me cringe.

I find terms like "let's make gay marriage illegal" very offensive. In fact, it makes me cringe.
 
Because the possibility that people might become parents, whether or not that is their intention, creates unique problems for those people, and a legal institution is necessary that recognizes those problems. We call that institution "marriage". If people who cannot have children, for whatever reason, want to then enter into a relationship governed by the same rules, that's ok with me.

While I don't agree with your parent/child position on marriage I'm glad to see that you do support same-sex marriage.
 
I'm disappointed no one commented on my line about members in church. I thought it was pretty pithy...

-Disgruntled.
 
So, what you're saying is that marriage laws are not there for procreation but to help protect the member(s) of the union?

Yes.

There are no laws needed for procreation, but procreators, potential procreators, and procreatees need protection, which is what laws are for.
 
Yes.

There are no laws needed for procreation, but procreators, potential procreators, and procreatees need protection, which is what laws are for.
But the reasons you gave were based on inequity of the partners and had nothing to do with being able to procreate. It would be just as applicable to parents of an adopted child or homosexual partners, in general.
 
There are no laws needed for procreation, but procreators, potential procreators, and procreatees need protection, which is what laws are for.

So why must marriage be the legal entity for this? Can we not have laws that simply protect women like we have laws that protect endangered species?
 
You actually needed that law?

Nah, not really. In fact, no contract law is ever really necessary, because a handshake will suffice between honorable people.

Surely if someone goes out in public and proclaims that he or she will remain faithful and supportive of another person, he or she would never break their word, would they? So, I guess no laws are needed to cover the possibility that someone might do that.:rolleyes:
 
I pay an unfeasible amount in taxes which go to pay for other people's kids education - and yet I can't even get MARRIED in your books...???

This is ridiculous.

Unsubscribe.
 
But the reasons you gave were based on inequity of the partners and had nothing to do with being able to procreate. It would be just as applicable to parents of an adopted child or homosexual partners, in general.

Through the wonders of technology, inequity of the partners might be considered irrelevant to procreation by some, and yet there are many who insist that the two factors, inequity and procreation, are somehow related.

Primitives, I guess.


There are even some who suggest that the average woman has differences from the average man, independent of their desire to procreate, and that these differences might have an economic or personal impact that should be reflected in societal institutions. They haven't realized that all such differences are artifacts of our patriarchical society.
 
Through the wonders of technology, inequity of the partners might be considered irrelevant to procreation by some, and yet there are many who insist that the two factors, inequity and procreation, are somehow related.
The inequities that I'm talking about (and you, before me) are social and economic in nature, not physological: The older man running off with the younger woman. The unwed parent not being able to take care of the child.
 
The inequities that I'm talking about (and you, before me) are social and economic in nature, not physological: The older man running off with the younger woman. ...

That's not physiological?

Or psychological with origins in physiological differences?


There are plenty of people who think that the differences between men and women are all social. I'm not one of those people.
 
If you don't like the Biblical/biblical argument, I found an article that raises a couple of points that I hadn't even thought of before:

At this point I sometimes think I'm actually less against gay marriage itself than I'm against arguments in favor of it. With few exceptions I find them unpersuasive and ridiculous — like those childless employees who complain that family friendly company policies discriminate against time they'd like to spend with their pets or hobbies. An easy answer there is that other people's children will eventually pay your Social Security, so stop griping about minor perks like flex time for working mothers.

Which points to the essential problem with gay marriage: It's not procreative, so the state has no business getting involved. Yes of course there are childless heterosexual couples — but the state also shouldn't invasively withdraw recognition because of people's private sexual or reproductive situations. The basic blueprint of marriage is to assign responsibility for children that might be born from sexual arrangements. Whether children actually are born is another matter.

What agitators for gay marriage never address is why a homosexual domestic partnership should be more worthy of government approval (or employee benefits) than a myriad of other domestic partnerships. Why not two single moms who live together with their children, like Kate & Allie? Or a straight woman and her gay male best friend, like Will & Grace? Or two unmarried heterosexual sisters who live together and share all expenses — kind of an old-fashioned
arrangement, but certainly not extinct; I happen to be friends with a pair like this myself. Why can't they get a tax break?

Gay activists often point out various same-sex unions that have outlasted many heterosexual ones. But I don't see why sexual relationships of any stripe, if they're not at least inherently procreative, should trump all others.

http://www.nationalreview.com/seipp/seipp200604110753.asp
 
That's not physiological?

Or psychological with origins in physiological differences?
The older man running off with younger women is psychological in origin (and probably with a strong social factor mixed in). The protections you are talking about have nothing to do with women being able to have children and everything to do with women's historically lower earning power and social status as they grow older. Granted, the former is slowly changing, but the latter really isn't, with a few exceptions.


There are plenty of people who think that the differences between men and women are all social. I'm not one of those people.
[/quote]I don't think the physiolgical difference between men and women are all social. I think the social, legal, and vast majority of psychological differences are social in nature.
 
I think the social, legal, and vast majority of psychological differences are social in nature.

A lot of people agree. I'm not one of them. I think the majority of the psychological differences are rooted in biology, and many of the legal and social differences stem from the psychological, and to a lesser extent, physiological, differences.

And that's where a lot of the gay marriage arguments fall on deaf ears for me. They seem to be rooted in the concept that men and women are basically the same, so one man and one woman is basically the same as two men or two women. I don't buy it.

But, it takes al kinds to make a world, so as long as the institution of marriage exists and is set up to accommodate breeders, have fun with the imitation, if it suits your fancy. And if you want a separate sort of institution that works better for two people who are flexible in their sexual relationships but want to share real estate and tombstones, that's fine with me, too.
 
It seems to me that the pro-SSM folks are arguing that love is the foundation of a long-term committed relationship; and that the anti- are arguing that pro-creation is its foundation.
 

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