Did Rumsfeld Lie?

[Elind]

Arrghhhh.

 

[Ziggurat]

LOL. Well, you did say it was enough to make WMD's, when in truth, all the uranium of that quality in the world wouldn't be enough to make WMDs.

Not without processing, sure. But that's always the way it is with uranium.

But that's okay. I know you are not claiming there were WMDs or even incipient WMDs, yet it appears you still don't throw out WMD's as a good reason for going into Iraq. Obviously, the US knew about this stockpile long in advance. They didn't need to invade to find it.

Of course not. The IAEA knew about these stockpiles, and that means we did too.

But I've long maintained that the problem with Saddam and WMD's extended well beyond whatever he had at a given moment. If not what he had now, then always how do we continue to make sure he can't get any in the future. And the only permanent solution to that problem was toppling him.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yep. Same red herring I mentioned. You notice the item is three years old. That should be plenty of time to find the rest of the parts or some other scientists who were part of the program. Maybe they were all killed.

But it's not a red hering. It doesn't demonstrate any CURRENT capacity at the time we invaded, sure. But it did demonstrate an continued determination to re-establish such programs at some point in the future. And that's a real issue, not a red hering, even if you don't agree on what we should have done about that issue.

 

[Tricky]

Not without processing, sure. But that's always the way it is with uranium.

The way I understand it, this grade of uranium couldn't be processed for weapons, which is why the IAEA left it alone.

Of course not. The IAEA knew about these stockpiles, and that means we did too.

But I've long maintained that the problem with Saddam and WMD's extended well beyond whatever he had at a given moment. If not what he had now, then always how do we continue to make sure he can't get any in the future. And the only permanent solution to that problem was toppling him.

I seriously doubt that is any sort of permanent solution. Unless we keep troops there forever, there will be other strongmen. Iraq may even become part of Iran, or so close that you can't tell the difference. We didn't make ourselves one bit safer by toppling Saddam. (as always, IMO)

No, you can never tell for sure what some despot is doing. But I don't believe that America should be in the business of toppling countries that we don't trust. I mean, can we really trust Canada?

 

[Huntster]

...The equipment also dates back to pre-sanction era. Hmmm.

Correct. Part of what he was believed to have, yet absolutely, positively, and predictably wouldn't surrender it, despite sanctions, closed skies, UN inspectors, the threat of war, etc.

Buried in a garden.

You folks who really don't like looking for stuff don't find much, do you? You couldn't even find the fact that that centrifuge existed and was found. Somebody else had to link you to the published information.

Go have another drink (see my signature).

 

[thaiboxerken]

Actually, we just like people to support their own claims, Sasquatch-boy.

 

[Tricky]

But it's not a red hering. It doesn't demonstrate any CURRENT capacity at the time we invaded, sure. But it did demonstrate an continued determination to re-establish such programs at some point in the future. And that's a real issue, not a red hering, even if you don't agree on what we should have done about that issue.

You don't take drastic steps like naked aggression because of what somebody might someday do, because you might be wrong. Aren't you glad we didn't nuke Libya? Lots of people wanted us to.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken :
Feel free to apply for the JREF challenge for the paranoral ability of KNOWING how alternate timelines will turn out.

For your information; interpreting words (in English at least), means doing so in context and attempting to understand the intended meaning behind the words (sentences even!)....

Don't waste your time. Mr. thaiboxerken commands limited control over the English language.

He also seems to have a limited concept of reality. See my signature below. Feel free to click on the links, if you enjoy bizarre entertainment.

 

[Huntster]

So when you make a foolish claim, it's just sarcasm?

Good question, sir. (See my signature below).

 

[Tricky]

Correct. Part of what he was believed to have, yet absolutely, positively, and predictably wouldn't surrender it, despite sanctions, closed skies, UN inspectors, the threat of war, etc.

Buried in a garden.

What the livin' hell are you talking about? Saddam almost certainly didn't even know the damn thing existed. He didn't even order it buried, his son did. It might have been just some sort of offhand order. It is quite obvious that this was not a widespread trend or we would have found other things in other gardens. It sounds like a confused Iraqi patriot planting a victory garden.

You folks who really don't like looking for stuff don't find much, do you? You couldn't even find the fact that that centrifuge existed and was found. Somebody else had to link you to the published information.

I knew when it was found and I knew that it had been discredited as evidence almost three years ago (See my earlier link.) You apparently didn't. Try to keep up with the news.

Not even the Bushies consider this evidence, and they'd be happy to seize upon anything remotely supporting their cause. What does that tell you?

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Correct. Part of what he was believed to have, yet absolutely, positively, and predictably wouldn't surrender it, despite sanctions, closed skies, UN inspectors, the threat of war, etc.

Buried in a garden.

What the livin' hell are you talking about?...

Ultimately, I'm talking about living Hell. It's often called "war". It wouldn't have happened if Iraq had cooperated with the UN resolutions.

...Saddam almost certainly didn't even know the damn thing existed. He didn't even order it buried, his son did....

Funny, you like to accuse George Bush of knowing everything, yet you're willing to give Saddam a pass while admitting that it may have been his very son who had the "damn thing" buried there?

...It might have been just some sort of offhand order....

Yeah. An offhand order. Perhaps from Ace Hardware, Baghdad?:

"No, I'll just take one centrifuge today, thanks. My garden is only so big, you know......"

...It is quite obvious that this was not a widespread trend or we would have found other things in other gardens....

"We"? How many gardens did you "check"? How many gardens are in Iraq?

Hell, "we" didn't even find Saddams sorry ass "in a garden", although it was close; he was under a farm............

...It sounds like a confused Iraqi patriot planting a victory garden....

It doesn't look like the Iraqi is the confused one here.

Originally Posted by Huntster :

You folks who really don't like looking for stuff don't find much, do you? You couldn't even find the fact that that centrifuge existed and was found. Somebody else had to link you to the published information.

I knew when it was found and I knew that it had been discredited as evidence almost three years ago (See my earlier link.) You apparently didn't. Try to keep up with the news.

I, too, knew when it was found. I was writing that to the other "genius", thaiboxerken.

Try to read the name at the top of the quotes.

...Not even the Bushies consider this evidence, and they'd be happy to seize upon anything remotely supporting their cause. What does that tell you?

It tells me exactly what it means; an Iraqi scientist had a centrifuge buried in his garden.

 

[Art Vandelay]

"If Saddam had a weapon program, we'd find at least something."
"We found a centrifuge."
"If there were a weapon program, there would be something more than a centrifuge."

Funny how the goalposts keep moving.

 

[thaiboxerken]

"If Saddam had a weapon program, we'd find at least something."
"We found a centrifuge."
"If there were a weapon program, there would be something more than a centrifuge."

Funny how the goalposts keep moving.

Yea, from an actual threat to antique junk left over from over a decade ago.

 

[Huntster]

...Funny how the goalposts keep moving.

It's not the goalposts. It's not even the defense being pushed back.

It's the political and ideological offense, repeatedly fumbling the ball........

Again, I refer to my signature lines; that ought to explain the offense's "butterfingers".

 

[Tricky]

"If Saddam had a weapon program, we'd find at least something."
"We found a centrifuge."
"If there were a weapon program, there would be something more than a centrifuge."

Funny how the goalposts keep moving.

"Saddam had WMDs"
"We didn't find any WMDs"
"Saddam had an active weapons program"
"We didn't find any evidence of an active weapons program"
"Saddam wanted to have an active weapons program"

Yep. I see them goalposts making a fast retreat.

 

[Ziggurat]

The way I understand it, this grade of uranium couldn't be processed for weapons, which is why the IAEA left it alone.

Nope. The only uranium you can't process to make a nuke is uranium that has already been depleted. But that's not what they had. They had unenriched uranium - it takes a hell of a lot of processing to get it to the point it can be used for a nuke, but what they had was still sufficient starter material. The IAEA left it alone because the barriers to processing it were much higher than the barriers to just getting more.

I mean, can we really trust Canada?

Well, I think we can trust them not to invade any of their neighbors, but I can't guarantee they won't start a war with Denmark over some piece of cold, wet rock.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4175446.stm

 

[Dr Adequate]

"If Saddam had a weapon program, we'd find at least something."
"We found a centrifuge."
"If there were a weapon program, there would be something more than a centrifuge."

Funny how the goalposts keep moving.

It seems that Art Vandelay CAN win an argument ... if he's allowed to supply both sides of it. He may not be the sharpest knife in the draw, but he is a little less dimwitted than the imaginary voices in hs head.

I guess everyone needs something to be proud of.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Apparently Dr A has been listening to every single conversation I have ever had, and knows for a fact that no one has made those arguments. Perhaps he works for the NSA?

 

[Huntster]

...Perhaps he works for the NSA?

Not So Adequate?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Perhaps he works for the NSA?

Perhaps, because under Bush's administation, he wouldn't need a warrant to observe every aspect of your private life.