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Loose Change

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first squib going off the allow the top to fall without toppling over and break into pieces.

second squib ejecting to allow the portion above to fall without toppling over and break into pieces

Let me just say something equally intelligent and insightful:

Mmmmm... squib. ;)

click on pic to play video of witnesses account of hearing bombs

I'm sure these witnesses have plenty of experience with falling buildings and exploding bombs. That's how they have acquired the unique talent to identify the sounds of bombs within the cacophony of the WTC collapse.

September 12, 2001-February 2002: Witnesses See Molten Metal in the Remains at Ground Zero A chunk of hot metal being removed from the North Tower rubble about eight weeks after 9/11. [Source: Frank Silecchia]
In the weeks and months after 9/11, numerous individuals report seeing molten metal in the remains of the World Trade Center:
Ken Holden, who is involved with the organizing of demolition, excavation and debris removal operations at Ground Zero, later will tell the 9/11 Commission, “Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from [WTC] Building 6.” [9/11 Commission, 5/1/2003]
William Langewiesche, the only journalist to have unrestricted access to Ground Zero during the cleanup operation, describes, “in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole.” [Langewiesche, 2002]

Can you say "non sequitur"?

August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses At the end of a two-day meeting to discuss the progress of their investigation of the WTC collapses on 9/11, National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) investigators say that early tests on steel beams recovered from the World Trade Center showed they met or were stronger than design requirements. It also will point out: “Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250�C. ... Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250�C. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 �C.”

Has this somehow acquired relevance since the last time you posted it?

July 23, 2002: A “lost tape” of radio messages from firefighters inside the WTC on 9/11 is made public. Supposedly, “city fire officials simply delayed listening” to this tape until after the official report on the fire department’s response to the attacks was published, and they still refuse to allow any officials to discuss the contents. The tape reveals that two firefighters were able to reach the crash site on the 78th floor of the South Tower. While there, “Chief Palmer could see only two pockets of fire, and called for a pair of engine companies to fight them.” [New York Times, 9/4/2002; Guardian, 9/5/2002]

So how come YOU get to discuss it? Teacher's pet?

Explosive Evidence. The FEMA report titled World Trade Center Building Performance Study, Appendix C (Available at http://www.fema.gov/library/wtcstudy.shtm) “Limited Metallurgical Examination”, shows evidence of explosives used, by way of photographs, microscopic, and chemical examination. They do not draw this conclusion though. Instead, the authors write (in these selected sentences [The coloring of the text is added here. See below for reason]) “Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure.”... “The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.”...“The unusual thinning of the member is most likely due to an attack of the steel by grain boundary penetration of sulfur forming sulfides that contain both iron and copper.”...“A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.”... â€

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/

If you can't trust a paranoid conspiracy theory site, who can you trust?

Some free advice, geggers. Before you post, read what you've written aloud. If it makes absolutely no sense, then consider a re-write.

ETA: Oops, I forgot geggster is deaf. How insensitive of me!

Go ahead and read it silently, gegg. Should be just as effective.
 
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Argh! It took me three follow-up posts to see that stupid little "a'...

:D :D :D

Haha - well, it was easy to miss! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make a cheap joke.


GEGGY - will you please, for the group, tell us what your definition of a "squib" is, and why you think you see one in those stills you posted?
 
Sorry, but we have to pay you in herring. Don't ask, its complicated.

AHA! Your slip of the toungue has revealed the real nature of the conspiracy. Bush intends to restore the Hanseatic League and put them back on top! I knew it had something to do with the Dutch.
 
Looks like this massive conspiracy may have cost me a friendship, though I've told him I'd just as easily have a beer with him as argue with him.

On May 11th I received an email from him entitled Confronting The Evidence--The 9--11 Truth Movement in which, at great length, he described the far-reaching government conspiracy of 911, mentioned Loose Change, made reference to the Reichstag fire, Pearl Harbour, The Project for a New American Century, and the New World Order, and encouraged me to check out links supporting the 911 conspiracy.

He was not amused when I responded with a list of links supporting the 'official' story, or debunking the contents of the links he had provided to me.

In an apparent appeal to authority, he tossed the names Steven Jones and Barry Zwicker at me, as though they have a monopoly on the truth. He became increasingly upset that I was unimpressed by their qualifications.

We corresponded back and forth via email, him getting increasingly emotional, me standing firm in my demand for evidence. Him resorting to name-calling and more emotional outbursts, me asking repeatedly for irrefutable evidence.

I told him I hadn't resorted to name-calling, or outright dismissal, I was "waiting for some FACTS to surface that show an elaborate conspiracy involving literally thousands of government employees, in dozens of government and civilian agencies, which resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Never mind the links to opinions, conjecture, speculation, or wishful-thinking, give me some MEAT. Give me even one name of a conspirator, or one document showing this elaborate scheme. Rumors, and claims by unqualified individuals just aren't convincing."

He became increasingly irrate.

A few minutes ago I received his latest email, filled with more emotional gems, heightened name-calling, and a plea I not send him any more on the matter lest he vomit (apparently because I've insulted his intelligence).

Too bad really, I've had some pretty interesting discussions with him in the past about topics suited for this message forum. He's not a bad guy, and it's really sad he's resorting to temper tantrums as impressive as anything my 11 kids have produced.

Reminds me of the Elbert Hubbard quote -- "If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names." --

Anyone else lose a friend over this?

RayG
 
I always will maintain its a belief system like a religion and that to admit themselves as wrong and learn from their mistakes is somehow overweighed by the need to belong to a group.

I agree. They remind me of the creationists. No amount of evidence will ever convince a creationist of the validity of evolution. That's because their beliefs aren't based on any evidence. Their acceptance of creationism is based solely on the dictates of their religion.

The CTers are the same. You could take a Looser to a university materials science lab and show him how steel is weakened by high temperatures, and he'll still refuse to believe that the towers were brought down by fire alone. Even if he admits that heat weakens steel, he'll cling to his belief that there were explosives in the building.

Steve S.
 
Short on time now, so making it a short one. New to forum. I have been following this thread since around #20 and have been trying to keep up ever since. Between this thread and all the connecting links, it is quite a chore. I am an electrician and have seen my share of transformers blowing, power lines being ripped apart, and lights surging and popping. I can't seem to find it, but early on in this thread or connecting links i saw a video of people running out of the building with flashing lights and popping sounds going off. This was one of the vids they were saying was proof of explosions near the bottom. Using MY common sense to SEE what was going on, those are the things I thought of first. Havn't seen that touched on or I missed it. Just my 2cents. Yes Ray....I have. Not a great friend, but someone I could talk too without freaking out. Just wanted to say great job on the research Gravy. You the man. Another comparison of geggy and Peter is that they are both exposed for antics they know are wrong every time. Just when you think they have learned something, they come back the next episode for even more wackiness...ensuring us all quality entertainment.
 
I agree. They remind me of the creationists.

Funny, I had the same thought. CT's and Creationsists can't seem to accept that random events (AKA coincidences) do happen, that there isn't necessarilly a motive or an intelligent design behind every random occurence. That's what makes their claims sound so paranoid. They make connections were there are simply none to make. Sure some things seem odd and suspicious, but stuff happens! Coincidences are a part of our daily lives, we don't even see most of them unless an event makes us look for them. Coincidences are how the Universe got to be.
 
Another comparison of geggy and Peter is that they are both exposed for antics they know are wrong every time. Just when you think they have learned something, they come back the next episode for even more wackiness...ensuring us all quality entertainment.
:D How true!

Welcome to the forums, Tailgater.
 
One to watch:
"PENTAGON VIDEOS TO BE RELEASED TOMORROW!":
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4266
Just saw it on the local news (NBC 5 Chicago), not much to see on the video. It's moving way too fast, but you can tell it's bigger than a missile and has AA paint. I can't believe it took over 4 years of Hollywood manipulation for thet! ;)

The gov't insists there are no other videos. Now, the CT'ers insist a tape was taken from a gas station nearby, you'd think they could have followed up on that story by finding witnesses, but they keep posting the same old story that hasn't changed in all this time.

The news story did mention the the CT, and the "controversy" that it may have been a missile. They then showed Lee Hamilton, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, saying the evidence for the plane hitting the Pentagon was overwhelming and conclusive, I don't know if that was file footage or a new statement.
 
A bit of perspective about the Pentagon attack:
“Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C.

"I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

Eric Bart's Pentagon Crash Witness List: http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html

Another Pentagon Crash Witness list: http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoud.../witnesses.htm

Note that many of the witnesses specifically say it was a very large American Airlines plane. Some of the witnesses are experienced at aircraft identification.

Here's a partial list of the organizations that would have to be fooled in order for the Pentagon conspiracy theories to begin to make sense. Keep in mind that 8,000 people were on the scene after the crash. To my knowledge none of them have supported any conspiracy theory. Have the CTs made any attempt to interview any of these 8,000 people? If I thought my government was launching terrorist attacks against its own citizens, I'D REALLY WANT TO FIND OUT FOR SURE, AND NOT JUST SPEND MY TIME TWIDDLING A COMPUTER MOUSE.

the Pentagon Fire Unit
the Pentagon security staff,
the DOD Honor Guard
the Pentagon Medical Unit,
the Pentagon 2-person Crash Response Team
the Pentagon Defense Protective Service,
Four U.S. Army Chaplains
One Catholic Priest (Stephen McGraw)
Donald Rumsfeld and staff
the Arlington County Fire Department,
the Arlington County Sheriff's Department,
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
the Arlington, VA Police Department,
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue,
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue,
the Alexandria, VA Fire & Rescue
the District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
the Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
the Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
the Fort Myer Fire Department,
the Arlington County SWAT Team,
the Virginia State Police,
the FBI's Evidence Recovery Teams,
the National Transportation Safety Board
the HHS National Medical Response Team,
the FBI Hazmat Team,
the EPA Hazmat Team,
the FEMA Incident Support Team,
the FEMA Emergency Response Team,
the FEMA Disaster Field Office.
the FEMA Virginia-1, Virginia-2, Maryland-1 and Tennessee-1 Task Forces
the US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach, Fairfax County and Montgomery County,
the National Naval Medical Center CCRF
Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams,
the Virginia Department of Emergency Management
the US Department of Defense,
the Federal Aviation Administration,
the U.S. Army 54th Quartermaster Company Mortuary Staff
the U.S. Army 311th Quartermaster Company Mortuary Staff
the U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
the American Red Cross,
the United States Secret Service,
American Airllines
North American Aerospace Defense Command,
the National Military Command Center,
the National Disaster Medical System,
the US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command,
the Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders
the E-4B National Airborne Operations Center aircraft
the C-130H crew in D.C.
the Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington
 
...I am an electrician and have seen my share of transformers blowing, power lines being ripped apart, and lights surging and popping. I can't seem to find it, but early on in this thread or connecting links i saw a video of people running out of the building with flashing lights and popping sounds going off. This was one of the vids they were saying was proof of explosions near the bottom. Using MY common sense to SEE what was going on, those are the things I thought of first. Havn't seen that touched on or I missed it.
Welcome Tailgater. Good to get your perspective. I touch on the issue of electrical explosions on page 61 of my "Loose Change" guide.
And how many of these explosions were electrical systems shorting, transformers and switchgear blowing, generators failing, steam pipes bursting, flaming debris and steel beams falling down elevator shafts, etc. Several reports call the sound of the actual collapse of tower 2 a “huge explosion.”

Electrical explosions do happen in skyscrapers:

Electrical Fire Hurts 6 at Trade Center
An air-conditioning transformer five stories below the World Trade Center caught fire after an explosion last night, the authorities said. Six people were injured, none of them seriously, but the 110-story twin towers did not have to be evacuated, the authorities said. The fire was first reported at 10:02 P.M. in a 13,000-volt transformer in the Trade Center's refrigeration plant, which provides air conditioning and ventilation for the complex, the Fire Department and the Port Authority said. The electrical fire, which went to three alarms, was brought under control at 11:24 P.M., said a Fire Department official, Lieutenant Erick Weekes. NEW YORK TIMES July 24, 1992

Remarks on the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing by Fire Chief Donald J. Burns
“Usually, a report of an explosion in a high-rise indicates an electrical problem such as a large short or a transformer explosion. “

Video of a transformer explosion.

What the various explosions reported would have to do with CD, I don’t know. When you demolish a building with explosives, you set the charges to go off in a precise order at demolition time, not in a random fashion for nearly an hour. Some CTists have suggested that bombs were placed at different locations within the building. I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for why that would be. Large bombs would really mess up your carefully-prepared controlled demolition. What’s more, no one I know of has come up with any plausible explanation of how this massive amount of CD work could have been accomplished.
 
A bit of perspective about the Pentagon attack:
Here's a partial list of the organizations that would have to be fooled in order for the Pentagon conspiracy theories to begin to make sense...

Hey Gravy, that list meshes well with the one I posted back in March:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1537874&highlight=FEMA#post1537874

So the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA),
the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE),
the state of New York,
the New York City Department of Design and Construction,
the Structural Engineers Association of New York,
the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations,
the National Fire Protection Association,
the Society of Fire Protection Engineers,
the American Concrete Institute,
the American Institute of Steel Construction,
the Masonry Society,
the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat,
the National Institute of Standards and Technology,
the Federal Advisory Committee,
the NYPD,
the FBI,
the Secret Service,
the CIA,
the New York Port Authority,
the NYFD,
the National Law Enforcement and Security Institute,
United Airlines,
the US Department of Defense,
the US Department of Justice,
the US Department of State,
North American Aerospace Defense Command,
the National Military Command Center,
the Federal Aviation Administration,
the Pentegon,
the Counterterrorism and Security Group,
the US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command,
Otis Air National Guard Base,
Langley Air Force Base,
Andrews Air Force Base,
Offutt Air Force Base,
the Air National Guard,
three E-4B National Airborne Operations Center planes,
the New York flight control center,
the Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington,
the La Guardia Airport control tower,
the New York Times,
the Boston Globe,
the Wall Street Journal,
the Washington Post,
Newsday,
United Press International,
Associated Press,
CNN,
ABC,
NBC,
CBS,
and Emma E. Booker Elementary School were all cooperating in a widespread conspiracy to conduct a controlled demolition, thereby reducing the WTC to a pile of rubble, provide misinformation to the American public, and divert attention from the REAL culprits -- the government?

Say it ain't so!!

RayG
 
Gravy-I touch on the issue of electrical explosions on page 61 of my "Loose Change" guide.

Thanks for the confirmation Gravy. I can't see your guide though. For some reason I get cannot find server whenever I try it. Tried for weeks now. Wow on the transformer video. I didn't see one that big, but it was a smalller telephone pole transformer. From 50 yards, it was so loud made my ears ring for 2 days, along with a flash, a small mushroom cloud, and a FIRE. That was just a small one that you find in a rural neighborhood.
 
Just another quick one. A house in a town near here had a gas explosion from the kitchen. Blew most of the house up and windows out of the surrounding houses along with a few people that were knocked over in the street. Was that a "squib"?
 
Gravy-I touch on the issue of electrical explosions on page 61 of my "Loose Change" guide.

Thanks for the confirmation Gravy. I can't see your guide though. For some reason I get cannot find server whenever I try it. Tried for weeks now. Wow on the transformer video. I didn't see one that big, but it was a smalller telephone pole transformer. From 50 yards, it was so loud made my ears ring for 2 days, along with a flash, a small mushroom cloud, and a FIRE. That was just a small one that you find in a rural neighborhood.
Tailgater,
I just tried both links to my "LC" critique and they're working...they're in my sig at the bottom of this post.

BTW, just wanted to make a big public thanks to CurtC for all his work on the HTML version. I just checked out the working table of contents. Awesome! I know that was a huge amount of work. You made something far more useful out of my scribblings.
 
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