Loose Change

[Pardalis]

I'm saying it didn't look like a controlled demo that is normally practiced in a regular building imploding project

I'm saying it (controlled demo) was done differently and uniquely for the towers to start imploding from the top

Let's apply Ockham's Razor here...

the official story:
The towers collapsed from the top because of structural failures.

geggy's theory:
The towers looked to have collapsed from the top because of utlra specialised controlled demolition charges specifically placed to make it look like it was stuctural failures.

 

[dubfan]

Not sure if this has been posted here already, but just in case:

http://www.flight77.info/

It details the ongoing FOIA lawsuit against DOJ/DOD to release any video that has been withheld of the Flight 77/Pentagon attack.

Summary: the government is apparently in possession of a single "responsive record" of the attack that has not been released to the public. This record consists of video time-lapse images from two cameras in the Pentagon parking lot. *Some* images from *one* of the cameras were leaked to CNN, without authorization, back in 2002, and these are the ones we've all seen and squabbled over. DOJ claimed a FOIA exemption because release of the remaining video endangered the prosecution in the Moussaoui trial. The trial is over, and the judge in the case has given the government until 5/26 to explain why they need to continue to claim the FOIA exemption.

According to a statement by the FBI agent who conducted the search, there were 85 (!) separate video records found (this was during the second search -- the first search turned up nothing, the government said. Plaintiff sued again and said, "look harder"). Of those, 84 didn't show the impact, according to the agent's statement -- she apparently viewed them herself. The one record that did is at the center of the dispute. The FBI agent claims there was no video from the Sheraton found, but there was one found from the Arlington Doubletree. No explanation has been given for why the 84 videos that show nothing have not been released.

After reading those court documents, I almost don't blame the CTs. It's very hard to understand the government's logic in resisting this request. If there's a national security argument (denying the enemy a real-time trajectory analysis or bomb damage assessment), they're not making it -- so far, it seems they're withholding based on legal grounds, and the fear of jeopardizing the Moussaoui trial. Of course that's over now, so that argument should be moot. It will be interesting to see how the government responds in the next few weeks.

 

[Dave_46]

It was the fact that he comfortably slept in his own bed in the WHite House later that night knowing that some crazy jihadists had killed thousands of people without fearing that his own life may be in danger. WTF...?!!!

Does anyone know where the President spent that night ? I seem to recall that he was whisked away to a bunker somewhere.

Dave

 

[dubfan]

IIRC, he spent the night in DC, after having been whisked off to Offut AFB for a few hours while the chaos was still unraveling. The Woodward book "Bush at War" would probably be a good resource for finding a definitive answer.

 

[Dave_46]

I just wondered if it was another "fact" he had got wrong.

Dave

 

[Zoilus]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

 

[Dragon]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

You want to believe the Official Version? What does that mean? Why don't you examine the evidence for yourself and then come to a conclusion?

 

[Pardalis]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

Strongest case? Reality. What don't you believe in the official story?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

You're "on the fence?" Why? The official version is clear, simple, and comprehensive.

As for telling you something, "strongest case" or otherwise, to "make [you] believe it," I'll return to the basics of how these things work:

If something appears to be a duck, behaves as if it is a duck, and we can hear tell-tale quacking, our conclusion is going to be fairly safe. If, however, one wants to argue that there is no waterfowl present, they must provide the evidence for their position.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Pardalis]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

Let me quote the following from http://www.perrylogan.org/

Number of structural engineers who posit bombs in the towers: 0

Number of engineering classes taken by the guys who are absolutely sure there were bombs in the towers: 0

Number of scientific polls showing a significant number of Americans believe 9/11 was an inside job: 0

Number of architects who posit bombs in the towers: 0

Number of explosions registered by seismologists when the towers fell: 0

Number of materials specialists who posit bombs in the towers: 0

Number of engineering conferences held to discuss bombs in the towers: 0

Number of engineering reports discussing bombs in the towers: 0

Number of seismologists who posit bombs in the towers: 0

Number of demolition experts who posit bombs in the towers: 0

Number of documents revealing the secret plan: 0

Number of NORAD people who said they stood down on 9/11: 0

Number of NORAD people who said they were confused by drills on 9/11: 0

Number of defense experts who say NORAD standing down was inexplicable: 0

Number of eye witnesses in the Pentagon who believe that a missile hit the building on 9/11: 0

Number of firemen at the scene who say there really were bombs in the buildings (i.e., not just saying it SOUNDED like bombs): 0

Number of commercial airline pilots who say the NORAD thing sounds fishy: 0

Number of journalists (mainstream or otherwise—but NOT wingnuts posing as journalists) who write seriously about 9/11 conspiracy theories: 0

Number of people who say they were actually involved in the plan: 0

Number of FBI agents, ex-agents, or whistle blowers who say 9/11 was an inside job (as opposed to mere incompetence): 0

Number of people who might know anything who have come forward (as opposed to people who wouldn't know anything—like a former German Defense Minister): 0

Number of clips of the buildings falling (used by conspiracists to bolster their theory) that have been authenticated by experts: 0

Number of items in the Northwoods document that were actually pulled off: 0

Number of intelligence specialists who think 9/11 was an inside job: 0

Number of historians who subscribe to the inside-job hypothesis: 0

Number of sane people who think Bush used his family friends to bring off 9/11: 0

Number of sane people who think international bankers financed a plan to close down Wall Street: 0

Number of sane people who think the most incompetent administration in galactic history pulled off the most complex subterfuge in history...fooling everyone except a few creepy guys who got on the web: 0

Number of follow-up domestic terror attacks after 9/11 (as confidently predicted by most inside-job theorists): 0

 

[dubfan]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

Because there's no evidence to the contrary. With all due respect, it's like being on the fence about Santa Claus. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, at some point you need to pony up and show me the guy in the red suit, the reindeer, and the bag of toys. Until then, you're perpetuating a fantasy.

 

[Ersby]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

Hi. I realise that I'm about the fifth or sixth poster to respond to you, and for that I apologise, but I would like to ask you to be more specific. What is causing you doubt?

Also, I should say that geggy began with a very similar gambit. "I have genuine doubts" blah de blah, before he turned into a CT fundamentalist. This is perhaps why five or six people have jumped upon your statement. It's both regrettable (since you may feel under attack) but at the same time understandable (since we've seen the same thing before).

So where are your doubts?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Number of sane people who think the most incompetent administration in galactic history pulled off the most complex subterfuge in history...fooling everyone except a few creepy guys who got on the web: 0

Now that's comedy!

 

[Gravy]

Not sure if this has been posted here already, but just in case:

http://www.flight77.info/

It details the ongoing FOIA lawsuit against DOJ/DOD to release any video that has been withheld of the Flight 77/Pentagon attack.

I really wish there was no video at all. It's just titillation for the slavering CTs. All this time they've refused to face reality because the government is withholding a VIDEO. Why in the world is the existing evidence not enough for them? Because they will cling to ANYTHING in order to extend their stay in fantasyland. The same CTs refuse to accept video evidence of other aspects of 9/11 when it is presented. So if the Pentagon footage doesn't meet their standards, there we go: years more of wild speculation and ignoring all the evidence that has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are wrong. It's so dishonest, and so disgusting.

Imagine that I'm on trial for murder. Dozens of credible witneses saw me commit the murder in broaad daylitght. The DNA evidence, and all the other physical evidence in the case, says I did it to the exclusion of all others. If I'm a CT, I can simply say, "Aah, but there's no video!" and stroll out of the courtroom, right?

If the video is he government's property, obviously it should be made available: that's our property and I can't imagine there'd be any reason to classify it. But it sickens me that the CTs have made an issue of its "importance."

 

[Gravy]

Let me quote the following from http://www.perrylogan.org/

Number of people who say they were actually involved in the plan: 0

That's wrong. Some people have admitted involvement. One just got life in solitary confinement for his involvement.

 

[Gravy]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

Welcome! Why do you want to believe the official version?

ETA: I noticed you started a 9/11 poll here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1622875#post162287

The choices you gave and comments you made don't sound like they came from someone who wants to believe the OV. Are those really tha only ways you think 9/11 could have played out? And what would you like to see investigated more thoroughly, and why?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV. Tell me something that will make me believe it. Give me your strongest case (I've read some of this thread, but 3,000+ posts--fuhgedaboutit).

There can't be a single "strongest point" against the Loose Change people, because their theory is so piecemeal.

There is not, for example, one single point which will both refute the "Pentagon hit by a missile" stuff and the "WTC7 brought down by a controlled demolition" stuff, because those are two completely different conspiracies using, if they ever happened, two entirely separate sets of personnel and equipment and techniques. They would have to be debunked separately.

 

[CurtC]

Okay so I'm on the fence but I wanna believe the OV.

I beleive you would be josephborden from the LC forum, right? Welcome to the JREF forum, where you can say whatever is on your mind. I just request that you please not try to hide what you really think, and it appears that you're doing that here.

Please drop the charade, and I know that you will find a respectful, mature conversation over here. Again, welcome!

 

[Pardalis]

Does that mean that geggy's shift is over? Are they switching places like in a relay race? Damn, I was looking forward to reading his explanation of his controlled-demolition-looking-like-a-false-failure-from-the-top theory...

 

[Gravy]

I beleive you would be josephborden from the LC forum, right? Welcome to the JREF forum, where you can say whatever is on your mind. I just request that you please not try to hide what you really think, and it appears that you're doing that here.

Please drop the charade, and I know that you will find a respectful, mature conversation over here. Again, welcome!

Can't be josephborden. It doesn't tmake sense that he would post here and not address me directly, and I haven't heard a peep from him by email.

Did you guys know you were so important to Gravy?

He's taken many man hours to put this doc together

Take a look at it, then drop him a line with comments and suggestions:

itmatters@mail.com

JBR