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"The Unstoppable Schwartz"

Interesting Ian said:
That's a very interesting point. Prima facie one might expect that receiving blood may also have some influence. I have no idea if this has been reported or not. Might do a search later when I have time.
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Try "Tony Hancock" and "Blood Donor". ;)
 
Mojo said:
Where are you getting your information from?
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From just my general reading mainly. I keep hearing about it.

I have not seen reports of this phenomenon. You have claimed that "reports of this phenomenon seem to be very common indeed". I have asked you to provide evidence to back up your assertion, in the forms of links to or citations for these reports, but you have declined to do this.
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I say seem to be common because I keep coming across it all the time. But I did say seems rather than is common.

But the impression I get is that it is common. Does anyone know how common or uncommon this phenomenon is?

What about donated blood.

BTW I'm not trying to wind people up by starting this thread. I'm genuinely fascinated by it if it should transpire that this phenomenon is for real. It has all sorts of implications.
 
In some ways this is logical. People who undergo organ transplants obviously go through dramatic personality changes. For example, from the personality of a person too weak to walk to the personality of a person able to breathe. That alone counts as a major change in the direction of the donee. Then there's the cocktail of immunosupressent drugs and drugs to counteract the drugs--some pretty powerful stuff, and definitely some mood-altering stuff in there.

It's well known that testosterone (or the lack thereof) can cause personality changes. So if a person was given a liver that somehow changed his/her testosterone levels that would be a personality change. (This presumes that there is some sort of structural oddity in the liver.)

Given all the possible factors and possible explanations besides cellular memory, I think it makes more sense to look at the individual cells and see if there's any structure in there that could cause this.
 
Ian, why would an organ like the Heart, which as little to nothing to do with the creative process, imbue these people with such abiliites? For the same reasons that it was classically thought of as the seat of emotion, simply because its an organ that reacts to changes in emotional state?

You say its a common phenomena, but you don't cite any sources & expect us to.
 
kitakaze said:
While I would count myself among those who find the concept of the personality traits or abilities of an organ donor being transferred to the recipient doubtful, I will also admit that it is not a subject that I've looked into to any degree. Furthermore, I don't agree with the idea of dismissingly insulting the person who proposes we give that concept some consideration.:(
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:(

After Ian calls you an idiot for no good reason except that you disagreed with him you may feel differently. Certainly Lothian seems to.
 
Mojo said:
You're trying to shift the burden of proof so as to force me to try to prove a negative here.
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I don't have to prove that this phenomenon seems common. I'm just stating what it seems.

You're entitled to claim that what something seems is not the case at all. But it is absurd to ask me to prove you're wrong! You have to justify your claim. Otherwise it is you who is trying to shift the burdon of proof.
 
Interesting Ian said:
I don't have to prove that this phenomenon seems common. I'm just stating what it seems.
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If this were true, and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that it is, if a musician reveived a liver (or any other organ) from someone who was tone-deaf, would their musical abilities decline?
 
Interesting Ian said:
Yes, people have reported this happening.
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People have also reported being abducted by aliens. It doesn't mean that they have.

The onus is on you to prove that a person who receives a donated organ could become imbued with any personality characteristics or abilities of the donor.

Your call.
 
Anacoluthon64 said:
It would, I submit, be closer to the spirit of Occam (& Hume) to first propose that, since these are in all likelihood subjective assessments,
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No, I've read that their behaviour changes as well.

such reports may be prompted by more prosaic elements, e.g. the physiological and psychological trauma attending a transplant (such trauma being already known to be capable of profoundly affecting a person's disposition). If and when such proposals are shown to be inadequate or deficient, we can start bringing out the heavier artillery of "cellular memory."
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From my reading it seems that the changes in ones abilities and skills are too extensive for this hypothesis.
 
That's the problem with personality traits; they vary throughout a person's life, change following life events (of which a life-saving operation would be one) and are not easily defined through any empirical means. In other words, it is easy for somebody to subjectively state that there is a significant personality change in another person which may (or may not) reflect another's personality. To make it even more difficult, the 'pre' personality is often deceased, and aspects of their personality are inferred second or third hand.

Where does that leave us? With a subjective, emotional observation. Nothing substantial. Take that a step further; which would require the greater evidence - personality change resulting from a major life-event which, on occasion, may be selectively associated with donor personality traits...

or...

Lamarckian-like environmental influences can be encoded on a cellular level through a means as yet undetected.

We would need great reasons to even consider the latter, of which we currently have none. And not for lack of looking. Biochemistry is not a new science, and while we might not know the precise functions of all chemicals within a cell, there is currently no reason to infer a degree of 'environmental encoding' that would be required for a personality trait to be conferred.

It would take some pretty extraordinary evidence to swing opinions on that. Of course, if anybody has that evidence, I'd be happy to be the first to look at it.

Athon
 
ChristineR said:
In some ways this is logical. People who undergo organ transplants obviously go through dramatic personality changes. For example, from the personality of a person too weak to walk to the personality of a person able to breathe. That alone counts as a major change in the direction of the donee. Then there's the cocktail of immunosupressent drugs and drugs to counteract the drugs--some pretty powerful stuff, and definitely some mood-altering stuff in there.

It's well known that testosterone (or the lack thereof) can cause personality changes. So if a person was given a liver that somehow changed his/her testosterone levels that would be a personality change. (This presumes that there is some sort of structural oddity in the liver.)

Given all the possible factors and possible explanations besides cellular memory, I think it makes more sense to look at the individual cells and see if there's any structure in there that could cause this.
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I scarcely think that the change in testestorone levels would make me prefer a certain food, or precipitate a desire to go shopping all the time.
 
The reason we doubt the idea that implanted organs transfer traits of the donor is that no known mechanism exists for this.

Such reports cannot be widespread, since the identity of the donor is not normally revealed to the recipient.

As mentioned, receiving a donor organ is usually accompanied with profound changes for the patient, both physically and psychologically, and in the cases where the donor IS known, it is not unlikely that some of those changes might be interpreted as being traits of the donor.

In other words, we have no explanation for how it could happen, but we do have an explanation on how the idea could arise.

At such a state of the things, skeptics commonly dismiss an idea, pending new evidence.

Hans
 
ChristineR said:
In some ways this is logical. People who undergo organ transplants obviously go through dramatic personality changes. For example, from the personality of a person too weak to walk to the personality of a person able to breathe. That alone counts as a major change in the direction of the donee. Then there's the cocktail of immunosupressent drugs and drugs to counteract the drugs--some pretty powerful stuff, and definitely some mood-altering stuff in there.
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I think it is more likely to be a combination of the second chance syndrome and of correlation as opposed to causation.

Take a liver transplant, a result of excessive drinking. It us likely (although George Best is a notable exception) that there will be a behavioural change once a fresh liver is delivered. That is due to the person themselves deciding on a new way of living as opposed to inheriting the attributes of the livers previous owner.

There is also the correlation issue. I have noticed a personality change in my mother following her hip op. No chance of inherited personality from a lump of plastic. More like, she has a new lease of life, pain free and wants to make the most of it. That change is caused by the removal of pain not by having a lump of plastic put inside her body.
 
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Corplos said:
Ian, why would an organ like the Heart, which as little to nothing to do with the creative process, imbue these people with such abiliites? For the same reasons that it was classically thought of as the seat of emotion, simply because its an organ that reacts to changes in emotional state?

You say its a common phenomena, but you don't cite any sources & expect us to.
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I don't have any sources. I said it seems to be a common phenomenon from my general reading.

So I don't understand why I should do the searching. If you're interested you should do your own searching.
 
Interesting Ian said:
I scarcely think that the change in testestorone levels would make me prefer a certain food, or precipitate a desire to go shopping all the time.
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No offence, mate, but you know this how, exactly?

Hormones play a very complex role in the body's communication system, and changing their levels can often produce effects that are hard to predict. Modifying testosterone levels could have a wide variety of effects.

Modified testosterone levels wouldn't have an impact on a preference for certain foods? Hormones effecting a personality directly are much more likely than cells transferring an encoded personality.

Athon
 
ChristineR said:
:(

After Ian calls you an idiot for no good reason except that you disagreed with him you may feel differently.
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You're a liar. I would never call someone an idiot simply because they disagreed with me. I call them idiots because I think they are (not literally an idiot of course, but rather someone who is not particularly bright).
 
Interesting Ian said:
I don't have any sources. I said it seems to be a common phenomenon from my general reading.
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Oh, ok. And people have explained that while an observation has been made that describes this phenomena on many, many occasions, it has a likely explanation.

That was easy.

Athon
 
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