The Gospel

[kurious_kathy]

This scripture tells us the soul is in tact from the moment of conception.

Psalm 139:13-16...

For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

 

[Freethinker]

This scripture tells us the soul is in tact from the moment of conception.

Psalm 139:13-16...

For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

But it's going straight to hell because it didn't accept Jesus Christ as its personal savior.

 

[kurious_kathy]

One day, I'll write my life-story-so-far, and Kathy can have a real good cry over how horrible it was, and then continue to wonder why I no longer believe God (any god, but especially ol' Yahweh) exists.

She can then explain to me why, if God really exists, when I "asked for bread," He "gave me a snake."

Hi sling, I really can and do empathize with you. See I did the very same thing for at least 10 years. I blamed God for everything that went wrong or was bad in my life. If God loves me why did all that crummy stuff happen. Still don't know the answers.
But what I do know now that God is faithful. He loves us even when we don't choose to love Him back. I am now turned around because of the extra mercy and grace He bestowed on me. And I know He can do that for you if you just try to soften your heart a bit to Him. If it's gona take a miracle to turn you back around, then that's what I am praying for, for you too.
Life is hard, but God is good. Don't let the father of lies distort your vision. Everything that is good comes from God, the rest is from the evil one!

 

[slingblade]

God promises, through Christ, to give us "everlasting life," right?

But we obviously already have everlasting life despite any belief in God. Look:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Okay. So what can this mean? Everyone dies. Aside from a couple of unusual people in the Bible, everyone dies. Even Christians. They die, they corrupt, they stinketh. So choosing to believe on Jesus doesn't keep physical death from happening. Correct so far?

Thus, the quoted passage must mean "all those who choose to believe on Jesus will have eternal life after death in a non-corporeal existence."

However, sinners and unbelievers also have eternal life after death in a non-corporeal existence, because that's what God punishes in his eternal lake of fire.

The passage therefore promises to give us something we already have.

One doesn't, therefore, have to believe in God or Christ to have an afterlife, but to have a pleasant afterlife.

My point is that it sounds less-than-honest of God. It does to me, anyway.

 

[kurious_kathy]

But it's going straight to hell because it didn't accept Jesus Christ as its personal savior.

No that's a misconception on your part. The children are not held accountable until they come to an age of being able to be held accountable.
Even Jesus said, let the little ones come unto me. He saves them automatically when they have died young. At least that's what I see scripture tells us.

Hebrews 4:13 also tells us...
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

 

[BlackCat]

If God needs to get to that person before they die, he will. It's the mere fact that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If we die outside of Christ, then yes scripture says it's too late. But I don't think there is one of us that are not given the chance to receive Christ before we die.

Uh huh. What about all the people who weren't Jewish, but lived before Christ's time? What about all the people in the Americas before it was discovered? What about all the people who live in isolated villages around the world?

BlackCat

 

[Freethinker]

No that's a misconception on your part. The children are not held accountable until they come to an age of being able to be held accountable.
Even Jesus said, let the little ones come unto me. He saves them automatically when they have died young. At least that's what I see scripture tells us.

Show me in the bible!

 

[bluess]

Well, according to Dante, all the virtuous pagans spend eternity in Limbo. They're not in paradise, but they aren't suffering except for being outside of paradise.

But I believe the Pope just said that there is no Limbo.....

 

[kurious_kathy]

Show me in the bible!

This is another topic where there is much controversy.

Here are the verses Dr. McGee uses to defend his position that babies go to heaven if they die.

2 Samuel 12:23..."But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

I think that this is the definitive verse (even in complete context) that shows babies go to Heaven. David fully expected to see his baby child, that died, in Heaven.

Mark 10:15..."Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

Dr. McGee also uses this to show children are innocent and go to Heaven. He had a kid that died very young and he believes that he will get to see her again. I think in Mark 10:15 Jesus is saying you must be innocent (sinless) to enter Heaven. Only by his removing our sin (making us innocent) can we enter Heaven is what I think the deeper meaning is.

 

[bluess]

This is another topic where there is much controversy.

Here are the verses Dr. McGee uses to defend his position that babies go to heaven if they die.

2 Samuel 12:23..."But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

I think that this is the definitive verse (even in complete context) that shows babies go to Heaven. David fully expected to see his baby child, that died, in Heaven.

Mark 10:15..."Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

Dr. McGee also uses this to show children are innocent and go to Heaven. He had a kid that died very young and he believes that he will get to see her again. I think in Mark 10:15 Jesus is saying you must be innocent (sinless) to enter Heaven. Only by his removing our sin (making us innocent) can we enter Heaven is what I think the deeper meaning is.

I think it likely that Dr. McGee's interpretation of scripture is colored by the loss of his/her child. He would either have to believe that his child will burn eternally in hell for not having accepted salvation through Christ, or come up with end-run around Jesus' statements as reported in the bible, or eek: ) decide that he was basing his life on a pile of silliness.

 

[wolfgirl]

Uh huh. What about all the people who weren't Jewish, but lived before Christ's time? What about all the people in the Americas before it was discovered? What about all the people who live in isolated villages around the world?

BlackCat

I've asked pretty much this same question and gotten nothing reasonable as a reply.

There are a lot of people in the world who have never even met a christian, let alone been given the chance to learn about Jesus and his dad. If they die, having never even been given an OPPORTUNITY to accept Jesus as their personal savior, blah, blah, blah, they must go to hell, right? But Kathy just says that's why missionaries are out trying to get to everyone. But what about the ones they didn't get to in time? She doesn't have an answer for that.

 

[Ducky]

Pardon me while I laugh at the asshattery of kathy quoting the bible while having an avatar of a naked anime angel.

Kathy, at this point, are you just trying as hard as possible to not be taken seriously? Is it like a "if I'm going to crash, I had best make it spectacular!" type of mentality?

 

[UrsulaV]

As a couple people have asked already, Kathy, what do you think happened to people who lived in a time before the spread of Christianity? Is an Aztec who could not possibly have learned about Christianity because they were on another continent with no significant trade going to hell?

 

[cyborg]

If God needs to get to that person before they die, he will.

I guess that means your god doesn't need everyone then.

The only innocent ones are the babies who never got the chance to live, like the aborted babies. They never sinned so it would appear they are in heaven with Jesus.

So much for original sin being passed down through the generations then.

Unless of course you can tell us at which age it is impossible for a human not to have sinned? Is that 1 month, 1 year or more Kathy?

 

[lostnick3]

Jesus died for our sins. we all go to heaven.

 

[Palimpsest]

Tell ya what, lostnick3. How about you and kurious_kathy thumb-wrestle for it?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Pardon me while I laugh at the asshattery of kathy quoting the bible while having an avatar of a naked anime angel.

I think this little angel is cute. I don't really care if you think so. Do you think I like looking at the picture of your spine? I have metal in mine too, but I don't want to show it to people.

 

[BlackCat]

I've asked pretty much this same question and gotten nothing reasonable as a reply.

I suspected as much, and I know she won't definitively answer the question. In fact, I came to the same conclusion -- that they all must go to hell. Once I realized that, I soon started questioning christianity.

Pardon me while I laugh at the asshattery of kathy quoting the bible while having an avatar of a naked anime angel.

I noticed that too! I wanted to say something, but it just struck me dumb that she would be so silly to have an avatar inspired by godless Japanese pop culture.

As a couple people have asked already, Kathy, what do you think happened to people who lived in a time before the spread of Christianity? Is an Aztec who could not possibly have learned about Christianity because they were on another continent with no significant trade going to hell?

Unless of course you can tell us at which age it is impossible for a human not to have sinned? Is that 1 month, 1 year or more Kathy?

These are excellent questions that I would like to see the christians answer.

BlackCat

 

[kurious_kathy]

I noticed that too! I wanted to say something, but it just struck me dumb that she would be so silly to have an avatar inspired by godless Japanese pop culture.

I just thought it was a cute picture someone sent me in an e-mail. I guess I could find several and change it whenever I feel like it.

 

[delphi_ote]

I think this little angel is cute. I don't really care if you think so. Do you think I like looking at the picture of your spine? I have metal in mine too, but I don't want to show it to people.

Because it would just be awful if anyone found out that science is what's keeping you alive and not your imaginary friend.