Loose Change

[ItsRDC]

"I was supposed to pilot a plane into the White House," Moussaoui responded when defense lawyers asked him if he knew he was supposed to be a pilot in the Sept. 11 attacks when he was arrested on Aug. 16 of that year. "I only knew about the two planes of the World Trade Center in addition to my own," he added.

Note: I can't post links yet, but you can find the article on the front page of foxnews

Another piece of evidence in the column of the standard 9-11 theory. Although I doubt it will stop the conspiracy theorists for a single moment.

 

[ItsRDC]

"I was supposed to pilot a plane into the White House," Moussaoui responded when defense lawyers asked him if he knew he was supposed to be a pilot in the Sept. 11 attacks when he was arrested on Aug. 16 of that year. "I only knew about the two planes of the World Trade Center in addition to my own," he added.

Note: I can't post links yet, but you can find the article on the front page of foxnews

Another piece of evidence in the column of the standard 9-11 theory. Although I doubt it will stop the conspiracy theorists for a single moment.

 

[WildCat]

Note: I can't post links yet, but you can find the article on the front page of foxnews

Another piece of evidence in the column of the standard 9-11 theory. Although I doubt it will stop the conspiracy theorists for a single moment.

Moussaoui is obviously working for the Globalists.

 

[diggingdeeper]

QUOTE]On the passport being found, I find nothing odd about this. The idea that this is unusual comes from a Hollywood idea of explosives, and how they operate. Police and crime scene techs routinely find parts from the "ground zero" of explosive devices, as an example. Very rarely does an explosion destroy everything around it. Even wires, casings, timers, and triggers from the actual bombs themselves are sometimes found intact (uncommon, but not unusual).[/QUOTE]

You are right; in an explosion it pushes everything away from it. While it may create a lot of tiny pieces it is not necessarily totally destructive. It can take weeks or months; however, identifying parts of the bomb is entirely possible. The plane was more of an incendiary device.

With a plane crash, one has to remember that a plane is made, mostly, of thin metals and plastics. I doubt that there was much left of the parts of the planes inside the buildings. It's not much of a stretch to assume that sudden decelleration from 400mph to zero would destroy the front half, and sling any persons and/or objects in the plane out the front, into the buildings or even out through broken windows.

Besides, as others have stated, it's not as if the passport was a key piece of evidence, in any case. It supports other evidence, but isn't really a requirement for the official conclusion. If they were going to plant something, it seems that DNA from the highjacker would be a more convincing plant (a claimed finger or hand recovered, for example).

[/QUOTE]

If I'm going to buy a bridge from you or anyone, I'd definitely want title insurance to guarantee that you actually have ownership to sell in the first place. Now back to the passport thing - what's your issue with Atta's passport having been found? There was lots of stuff found.

Like I said, I do not have the time, or desire, to spend on a debate about this, it could take me the rest of my life (and I do have one). However, I will try to answer your question the best I can.

I do not have an issue; to say I have an issue is to infer that I would like to resolve the matter. I do not. I am satisfied with not knowing. I would imagine that you are not. You seem to prefer to need to know, therefore accept that the passport was found in the wreckage as fact until proven otherwise. That is fine if it makes you feel comfortable.

What I meant was that while certainly it is possible that the passport was found intact in the span of time which it was but that it is not probable. I may be mistaken, but in order to ascertain that I would need to know how many other passports were found? How many other passengers had passports, etc. as well as a host of other questions.
He was piloting the plane was he not??? That would put him in the front most part of the plane and deepest into the interior of the building.

Things I do not know: certainly not a complete list.
Who found it? Was it a civilian, fireman, FBI, CIA, secret service, policeman? Is there a chain of evidence?
Where was it found?
Are you aware of the answers to any of these questions? Would they make any difference to you? Or would you feel they were not relevant in this case?

DNA? You are right, where’s the beef??? DNA would not have put a face on the crime to the general public the way the passport and photo did. I am not aware of any DNA evidence found linking the terrorists to the flight.

In the sense that it put a face to the crime, gave people a villain to see, and satisfied their need to know, it was an extremely important piece of evidence in that respect.

Don't get me wrong, I am not subscribing to the idea that it was planted or "Found" in order to cover up a plot by the United States government to blow up the trade towers. I do believe 911 was an act by fanatics and true believers who will not allow the anything to upset their perfect little worldview of the ends justifying the means.

Perhaps you might change my mind about the passport if you could lay out exactly the reasons why you believe it was found as stated. I would be more then willing to consider your or anyone else’s comments on it. But I

 

[diggingdeeper]

would prefer facts instead of conjecture.

 

[chipmunk stew]

DNA? You are right, where’s the beef??? DNA would not have put a face on the crime to the general public the way the passport and photo did. I am not aware of any DNA evidence found linking the terrorists to the flight.

Minor point: DNA is only useful for identification if you have a sample to compare it to. Not surprisingly, the investigators were not able to acquire samples from any of the terrorists (as far as I know).

 

[WildCat]

He was piloting the plane was he not???

...Things I do not know: certainly not a complete list.
Who found it? Was it a civilian, fireman, FBI, CIA, secret service, policeman? Is there a chain of evidence?
Where was it found?
Are you aware of the answers to any of these questions? Would they make any difference to you? Or would you feel they were not relevant in this case?

The passport found was of Satam al Suqami, who was not the pilot of the plane.

According to the 9/11 Commission: (page 21)

Suqami’s passport survived the attack: a passerby picked it up from the World Trade Center and handed to a New York Police Department detective shortly before the towers collapsed.

The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly thereafter. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11. See FBI report, interview of Detective Chin, Sept. 12, 2001.

So it wasn't recovered from the debris of the WTC, but before the tower collapsed.

And as you can see from this pic, debris from the planes did fall several blocks away from the WTC. The caption of this photo reads: "On Albany Street, two blocks south of WTC 2, Two men examine a seat cushion from AA Flight 11. 8:52 a.m."

eta: This pic also documents that debris from the plane as well as body parts rained down to the street from the crash.

 

[hellaeon]

And I didn't just dismiss it! I started looking up the claims that they had made. My BS detector was reading in the red for the whole movie, but it wasn't until I verified that what they were saying was false that I decided not to watch the rest of the film! Did I miss the trick ending where the directors jumped in front of a camera and said "April Fools?" If my conclusions from the beginning didn't match what was said in the rest of the movie, someone could've pointed that out to me very easily.

And I'd say I made the most effort in this tread to independently verify facts and come to my own conclusions. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I worked for hours working out equations and finding the right data. I looked at countless images of those buildings (not an easy thing for me to do.) I tried working the physics out myself (and there were some brazen mistakes back there! It took a lot for me to work toward a solution. Honestly, that paper Wildcat linked is just great.) I put a lot of time testing each of the claims I investigated. Rather than responding to these questions an inquiring and skeptical mind might have, the film moves on to the next subject. Alek did the same, even when directly confronted with the evidence and questions. He started to ask questions about the physics of the building collapsing. I thought we might be on the right track, nailing down the truth of one of these claims. Immediately after that, he ran off on a tangent about WTC7.

That's the problem with this garbage. Someone who generally wants to find the truth has to spend hours researching the facts. The conpsiracy nuts just slap a few pictures together and say "No way could that happen!" They expect us to sit around patiently and debunk every single claim they make. If it's an hour movie, we have to watch every minute of it and debunk every claim it makes or it's true. Their response to this is never to clarify, investigate the issue further, or admit they were wrong. We're dealing with the paranoid here. They ignore it and jump to the next subject.

It's the same problem with anti-evolution creationists, Kennedy assasination conspiracy theorists, moon landing hoaxters, (yes) Holocaust deniers, people believing in alien abductions... this list could go on forever. These people want to believe whatever thing they believe in because it fills some need they have. As soon as their delusions run into contradictory facts, you can watch them trying to resolve the congintive dissonance in front of you. Sadly, their strategy is usually to rationalize the facts away rather than confront them and reject their faulty hypothesis. That's exactly what's happening when they jump to the next subject.

well said mate. I found this when I was open to conspiracy theories and the like and spent some time reading about them. In fact, it was the 911 one which had me stop lending time to the conspiracy movement as the people I knew right into it where saying all sorts of ridiculous stuff such as shape shifting lizard theories and the like. Then I was told when I doubted them that I had a wrong worldview???????? I mean what the hell....I actually felt like it was a cult of sorts.

EDIT: ItsRDC - I wanted to mention that about Moussaoui. Good point, its anecdotal evidence, but as I have read on the 911 sites - surely he is an 'expert witness' ? - good to also see digging deeper talk a bit more civilized then degenerating his posts to slanging matches.


My two cents

 

[WildCat]

Minor point: DNA is only useful for identification if you have a sample to compare it to. Not surprisingly, the investigators were not able to acquire samples from any of the terrorists (as far as I know).

Just to clarify, DNA from the 9 hijackers from Flight 93 and Flight 77 was recovered. The families of those hijackers did not provide a sample for comparison and thus a positive DNA ID.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Alright, really Im starting to get caught up in this

How do we explain the WTC7 collapse?

Really watch a video on it, any video. It falls so nicely, like in a demo

 

[WildCat]

Alright, really Im starting to get caught up in this

How do we explain the WTC7 collapse?

Really watch a video on it, any video. It falls so nicely, like in a demo

Post 127.

 

[diggingdeeper]

Hey Wcat,
thanks for the info. That brings me a good part of the way there, however (and don't mind me, its just part of my personality, I am not grasping at straws) since I was speaking of odds and probabilities, what would you figure the odds were of finding the passport in less then an hour after the crash??
Not to mention the unidentified character... do you know if he has ever come forward? I know if it were me, I would not have kept it a secret that I had been the one to find the passport.

Also, Jarrahs parially burnt visa (his photo was not burnt)was found in the wreckage of flight 93

 

[diggingdeeper]

wcat,


I am trying to find the FBI interview with chin and had no luck. any suggestions?

 

[WildCat]

Hey Wcat,
thanks for the info. That brings me a good part of the way there, however (and don't mind me, its just part of my personality, I am not grasping at straws) since I was speaking of odds and probabilities, what would you figure the odds were of finding the passport in less then an hour after the crash??

What were the odds of you being born? Of George Mason getting to the Final 4?
Not really relevant, but it happened.

Not to mention the unidentified character... do you know if he has ever come forward? I know if it were me, I would not have kept it a secret that I had been the one to find the passport.

Perhaps that person doesn't even know the significance of what he found. There was a lot happening at the time...

 

[delphi_ote]

Post 127.

Here's a linky link.

 

[chipmunk stew]

I need to post an image here because the LC forum doesn't allow attachments.

edit: oops. I'll put it up in a sec.

 

[WildCat]

wcat,


I am trying to find the FBI interview with chin and had no luck. any suggestions?

I can't find it, probably not public info or it isn't on the web. Maybe you could try a FOIA request if you really need it.

 

[hellaeon]

yeah regarding odds, who would have thought the fricken south african cricket team would post a world record one day score against the aussies the same game that we first posted a record score. No team had passed 400 ever in a one day match. But we did, then I watched in horror as they did as well and won. Totally Surreal. Thats a hollywood script. Trust me for cricket, that was totally amazing.

One thing im constantly amazed by is the ability of people to walk away from immense car crash virutally unscathed, whereas a passenger in the same vehicle is killed instantly with horrific injuries.

who would have thought we would have probes on mars remotely controlled from earth - we cant actually see them. We rely only on what nasa tells us. A cover up of that would be much easier then 911.

 

[diggingdeeper]

Re the odds:
does that mean you guys buy lotto tickets too????

Anyway,
Seems there was much confusion and bad reporting and statements form various people during the ealy days about the passports and who they belonged to
There were 4 including the one found in Atta's bag in portland., that one was omani's probably where much of the confusion stems from.

re the evidence in #7, I was not trying to support some theory, I was simply curious about which cases were pending , and what happened because of the evidence held in the building being destroyed

 

[GrnMtSkeptic]

The idea that the pilot who flew the plane into the Pentagon had played a part in military exercises before had my interest, but it went nowhere.

Alas, that was bogus anyway. Charles Burlingame left the Navy to take a job with the airlines in 1979. He remained in the Naval Reserve until he retired in 1996. Yet this site claims he participates in an exercise in 2000, then retires to take a job at American Airlines.

I was going to ask, do they really think people won't check these things? But, it seems that people don't...

Charles F. Burlingame III

Charles F. (Chic) Burlingame III was born September 12, 1949 in St. Paul, Minnesota. He and his wife Sheri have resided in Oak Hill, Virginia, for the past five years.

A senior pilot at American Airlines, he began his airline career in 1979 after graduating from the Naval Academy in 1971. Chic served as a naval aviator flying F4 Phantoms and stayed in the reserves and rose to the rank of Captain. He earned the “Defense Superior Service Medal” and retired in 1996 after twenty-five years of distinguished service.

Memorial service Captain Charles Burlingame III
Thursday, September 20, 2001
1400 Hours
The Navy Academy Chapel
Annapolis, Maryland
Uniforms encouraged

Due to security, all guests names must be included on a list for the guard at the entry gate. The Naval Academy Security office must have this list no later than Tuesday, September 18th. To place your name on the list, please call 703-779-9769 speak clearly and spell your name, or mail mandjmarks@aol.com. You will be required to present a Photo ID at the gate or you will not be allowed to enter.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/cfburling3.htm