Split Thread Islamic takeover

[Darat]

But it does matter if it´s true or not. It matters a lot.

If it´s false it´s just pure propaganda. The best way to fight it is to show it´s false.
Transparency and evidence would help more than counter-propaganda.
If it´s true, or it has some kernel of truth at base, you may want to address this truth in due time, in order to avoid propagandists latching on it.

Not in the UK - our rates of deportation are up, we've reduced significantly people smuggling - can you point out where the right wing media and right wing politicians have acknowledged that?

 

[Abooga]

Not in the UK - our rates of deportation are up, we've reduced significantly people smuggling - can you point out where the right wing media and right wing politicians have acknowledged that?

Are deportations higher than influx from smuggling etc.? In Spain the rate is less than 10%.

For context, here in Spain from a population of 50 million, 10 million were born elsewhere. One out of five people in Spain immigrated here from somewhere else. A quarter of them (2,5 million) are muslim.

YMMV but when one out of five people in the country weren´t born in the country and you see their influx actually growing (600.000 in 2024, 800.000 in 2025 etc according to some sources, some say it´s up to 1.5 million in 2025... ) I don´t think it´s such a crazy thing to be a bit worried.

I focused on muslims because they seem to be the ones least capable of integrating into and accepting and respecting our values. Any reasonable person who values progressive, humanist principles should be islamophobic. Being islamophobic is not a bad thing by itself, it´s almost a badge of honor. Since when being against pederasty, mysoginy, bigotry etc and valuing freedom of expression and Human Rights is a bad thing?

Again, limiting the influx of immigrants is something that the majority of Europeans demand. Right wing parties are ahead, at least in the narrative aspect, in this sense. They are the ones ostensibly placing themselves as the only ones ready to do something about this. Do you accept this? That at least in the narrative aspect they are managing to convey this impression?

 

[Helen]

Not in the UK - our rates of deportation are up, we've reduced significantly people smuggling - can you point out where the right wing media and right wing politicians have acknowledged that?

It's the same here; the more people we deport, the louder the demands to deport every single muslim/brown immigrant becomes. And the refusal to acknowledge how important immigrants are to our societies is still alive and kicklig. Our birth rate is 1.4 (Spain's is 1.1), we live well into our 80s, and the health care sector is always understaffed. Severely understaffed here and there, in fact. So quite apart from the humanitarian readons for taking in people who need asylum, we also really need them. As in REALLY need them. I am glad they're here.

 

[Darat]

...snip.... They are the ones ostensibly placing themselves as the only ones ready to do something about this. Do you accept this? That at least in the narrative aspect they are managing to convey this impression?

Nope - apart from the ones saying the boats should be sunk - what they say they will do is what is already being done.

 

[Abooga]

Nope - apart from the ones saying the boats should be sunk - what they say they will do is what is already being done.

I´m not saying they will do anything better than the current governments, I doubt it. If they are like Trump and his ICE they will make a big mess of it. I´m not defending them, I´m just saying that narrativewise in Europe they seem to have placed themselves as the "anti immigration" block. Are you not seeing this? I think it must be another case of ideological blindfolding. it´s evident. The latest example here in Spain, this week. In Barcelona violent protests erupted, copying the French example. It was unclear who organised it, some obscure internet group wanting to cause chaos for some reason. Can you guess who leftists like Ione Belarra blamed it on? Infiltrated policemen (agent provocateurs) and the far right. They claim the far right may have instigated these protests.

Why would they do that...?

Can you guess?

 

[Planigale]

I´m not saying they will do anything better than the current governments, I doubt it. If they are like Trump and his ICE they will make a big mess of it. I´m not defending them, I´m just saying that narrativewise in Europe they seem to have placed themselves as the "anti immigration" block. Are you not seeing this? I think it must be another case of ideological blindfolding. it´s evident. The latest example here in Spain, this week. In Barcelona violent protests erupted, copying the French example. It was unclear who organised it, some obscure internet group wanting to cause chaos for some reason. Can you guess who leftists like Ione Belarra blamed it on? Infiltrated policemen (agent provocateurs) and the far right. They claim the far right may have instigated these protests.

Why would they do that...?

Can you guess?

I think that secularist left wingers and anarchists are generally believed to be behind the violence. Secular states like the US and Russia seem to be behind most of the violence and war in the world. China mostly focusses on internal repression of minorities and religious.

 

[Planigale]

Are deportations higher than influx from smuggling etc.? In Spain the rate is less than 10%.

For context, here in Spain from a population of 50 million, 10 million were born elsewhere. One out of five people in Spain immigrated here from somewhere else. A quarter of them (2,5 million) are muslim.

YMMV but when one out of five people in the country weren´t born in the country and you see their influx actually growing (600.000 in 2024, 800.000 in 2025 etc according to some sources, some say it´s up to 1.5 million in 2025... ) I don´t think it´s such a crazy thing to be a bit worried.

I focused on muslims because they seem to be the ones least capable of integrating into and accepting and respecting our values. Any reasonable person who values progressive, humanist principles should be islamophobic. Being islamophobic is not a bad thing by itself, it´s almost a badge of honor. Since when being against pederasty, mysoginy, bigotry etc and valuing freedom of expression and Human Rights is a bad thing?

Again, limiting the influx of immigrants is something that the majority of Europeans demand. Right wing parties are ahead, at least in the narrative aspect, in this sense. They are the ones ostensibly placing themselves as the only ones ready to do something about this. Do you accept this? That at least in the narrative aspect they are managing to convey this impression?

You might perhaps reflect on the meaning of the word bigotry?

You do know that Islam condemns same sex relationships between men? So you certainly can't argue Islam promotes pederasty.

Is Islam anymore misogynistic than Judaism, or traditional Christianity? The internet is full of trad wife / trad catholic posts. Misogyny is predominantly cultural not religious. A far greater proportion of women study STEM subjects at university in Iran or the Pakistan than in the US. Afghanistan may have restricted women's access to education but that reflects the culture, it certainly doesn't reflect the fact that in many Muslim majority countries a higher proportion of women receive tertiary education than in the US.

 

[Helen]

Before the wars, Afghanistan was investing in the education of women, and working to increase equality. Russia put a stop to that.

 

[Abooga]

I think that secularist left wingers and anarchists are generally believed to be behind the violence. Secular states like the US and Russia seem to be behind most of the violence and war in the world. China mostly focusses on internal repression of minorities and religious.

Wrong. What some leftists in Spain were saying is that someone was trying to paint leftists in a bad light, inciting these violent protests, in order to give strength to the far right.

Among others, Rufian (far left Spanish politician) said: "If it benefits the far right, the far right is probably behind this".

Why would this aid the far right?

 

[Trausti]

You do see the obvious flaw, right?

Yes, they put it on a log scale. This better represents the disparity:

 

[Trausti]

You do know that Islam condemns same sex relationships between men? So you certainly can't argue Islam promotes pederasty.

Well, in Afghanistan . . .

Is Islam anymore misogynistic than Judaism, or traditional Christianity?

Yes.

The internet is full of trad wife / trad catholic posts.

Those women chose that; it is not imposed on them. They're free to not do that without consquence.

Misogyny is predominantly cultural not religious.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1428069699095605256

A far greater proportion of women study STEM subjects at university in Iran or the Pakistan than in the US.

Yes, that's part of the gender equality paradox.

 

[Trausti]

Before the wars, Afghanistan was investing in the education of women, and working to increase equality. Russia put a stop to that.

This may be OT, but Russia/Soviet Union did not put a stop to it. The US supported the mujahidin, as the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Without US help, the mujahidin would have failed. Ironically, had the Afghan communist state been allowed to fail on its own, Afghan women would be better off. Of all the brutalities of Soviet Communism, one of its silver linings was its suppression/reform of religious fundamentalism. The most religiously tolerant Muslim-majority countries happen to be former socialist states (apart from Chechnya, obviously).

 

[Planigale]

Well, in Afghanistan . . .



Yes.



Those women chose that; it is not imposed on them. They're free to not do that without consquence.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1428069699095605256

Yes, that's part of the gender equality paradox.

Muslim majority countries have elected woman leaders they did so before Margaret Thatcher led the UK, there still seems little chance of a female US president.

 

[Planigale]

Well, in Afghanistan . . .

What?

 

[Planigale]

Yes, they put it on a log scale. This better represents the disparity:

If these were good Muslim boys they would have stayed in a Muslim country. The very fact that they left Afghanistan to go to a Christiian country (remember that England isn't secular, the head of state is also head of the Church of England, the national religion) tells you they aren't Muslim. They may be Afghanistani, but you can't use these statistics to say anything about Muslims.

 

[Planigale]

Wrong. What some leftists in Spain were saying is that someone was trying to paint leftists in a bad light, inciting these violent protests, in order to give strength to the far right.

Among others, Rufian (far left Spanish politician) said: "If it benefits the far right, the far right is probably behind this".

Why would this aid the far right?

Well the leftists would say that wouldn't they. It isn't as if there isn't a clear track record of secular leftist terrorists.

 

[Trausti]

What?

bacha bazi

 

[Trausti]

If these were good Muslim boys they would have stayed in a Muslim country. The very fact that they left Afghanistan to go to a Christiian country (remember that England isn't secular, the head of state is also head of the Church of England, the national religion) tells you they aren't Muslim. They may be Afghanistani, but you can't use these statistics to say anything about Muslims.

That's your pitch for mass migration of rapey men from Muslim countries?

 

[Ziggurat]

If these were good Muslim boys

I'm not sure the distinction between good Muslims and bad Muslims really matters to this issue.

 

[Ziggurat]

Muslim majority countries have elected woman leaders they did so before Margaret Thatcher led the UK

I tried looking women leaders of Muslim countries, and the earliest one I could find was 1988 (Bhutto in Pakistan). So obviously I'm missing someone. Who were you thinking of?