Split Thread Islamic takeover

[Planigale]

So the muslims conquering brought trade and culture, while christians reconquering only brought pogroms and bad things... you propaganda ridden mind reeks of bias. This is a good example of the effect of leftist islam whitewashing propaganda. We can see it first hand.

You probably need to learn some history. There is no doubt that the Islamic conquest was less 'barbaric' than the christian re-conquest. You should learn about the inquisition and auto-da-fe. Those christians tainted with Jewish blood were second class christians. Then one has to consider the barbarity of the crusades.

All religions appear to have a history of violent extremism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Shintoism. How many muslims have been killed by US forces this century?

Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn modern christian terrorism e.g. the Lord's Army.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Was it paranoia for Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh or the staff at Charlie Hebdo?

Why this need to downplay the danger of this dangerous cult?

Do you need a list of Muslim intellectuals and journalists attacked and murdered?

The question is not whether one side has loonies eager to do violence - any side does, but whether it is significantly more than any of the other side.
Christians in recent decades have killed orders of magnitudes more Muslims than vice versa.
Any neutral observer can see who is under attack by whom

 

[Abooga]

You probably need to learn some history. There is no doubt that the Islamic conquest was less 'barbaric' than the christian re-conquest. You should learn about the inquisition and auto-da-fe. Those christians tainted with Jewish blood were second class christians. Then one has to consider the barbarity of the crusades.

All religions appear to have a history of violent extremism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Shintoism. How many muslims have been killed by US forces this century?

Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn modern christian terrorism e.g. the Lord's Army.

I think you are the one who should learn some history if you have such a rosy view of the spread of Islam.

But that´s kind of secondary for what I was arguing and gave rise to this thread. Perhaps the title should have been "right wing rising in Europe, thanks to the lack of trust of Europeans in their mainstream political parties, mostly due to their lack of clear positioning against immigration, something most Europeans are demanding" .... but I admit it´s a bit long...

Being against immigration has often been a position we´ve been told that only bigots would support, when it´s quite the opposite in some cases, for example when it comes to islam, the most bigoted and dangerous of the main religions. If you are in favour to Islam to spread, you are helping the spread of bigotry.

Denying these things is helping the right wing. Continue doing so at your peril...

 

[Abooga]

Do you need a list of Muslim intellectuals and journalists attacked and murdered?

The question is not whether one side has loonies eager to do violence - any side does, but whether it is significantly more than any of the other side.
Christians in recent decades have killed orders of magnitudes more Muslims than vice versa.
Any neutral observer can see who is under attack by whom

Yeah, give me a list of Muslim intellectuals attacked and murdered by secularist fanatics. For burning a copy of the Declaration of Human rights. There were huge protests, right? All those secularists carrying banners and frothing in the mouth calling for the death of those who insult the Human Rights...

 

[The Great Zaganza]

About a million in Iraq - in the name of freedom and secularism

 

[Abooga]

About a million in Iraq - in the name of freedom and secularism

Iraq war was done to fight against Muslims "blaspheming" against secularist ideals? I suppose it´s an original interpretation... Nonsensical, but original, I give you that.

 

[Ziggurat]

About a million in Iraq - in the name of freedom and secularism

A million Iraqi intellectuals were killed?

What exactly is your definition of an intellectual?

 

[jt512]

A million Iraqi intellectuals were killed?

What exactly is your definition of an intellectual?

Somebody smarter than him.

 

[Norman Alexander]

So the muslims conquering brought trade and culture, while christians reconquering only brought pogroms and bad things... you propaganda ridden mind reeks of bias. This is a good example of the effect of leftist islam whitewashing propaganda. We can see it first hand.

Oh dear. I didn't realise Spanish history is not your best subject. It's certainly not mine, but it seems even I know more than you. I thought by simplifying the much longer complicated story considerably we could cut to the heart of this situation quickly. And we have. You identify closest with the Reconquista and then the Inquisition. And that's sad.

 

[Abooga]

Oh dear. I didn't realise Spanish history is not your best subject. It's certainly not mine, but it seems even I know more than you. I thought by simplifying the much longer complicated story considerably we could cut to the heart of this situation quickly. And we have. You identify closest with the Reconquista and then the Inquisition. And that's sad.

How condescending.

 

[Norman Alexander]

How condescending.

Not a denial, then. You are no longer interesting. Please stay away from me when we visit Spain next year. We want to enjoy our experience, not get a Franco revival.

 

[Abooga]

Not a denial, then. You are no longer interesting. Please stay away from me when we visit Spain next year. We want to enjoy our experience, not get a Franco revival.

Why should I deny a boring strawman? I´m arguing for secularism and against religious extremism and you say I´m like the inquisition? Why should I bother engaging with someone who either has no reading comprehension or is just dishonest? Either way, nothing positive can come out of talking with you.

 

[Trausti]

You probably need to learn some history. There is no doubt that the Islamic conquest was less 'barbaric' than the christian re-conquest.

Why did they need to re-conquest?

You should learn about the inquisition and auto-da-fe.

The number of people actually killed during the Spanish inquisition was about 3,000 over 250 years. Not to say that the Church didn't met out violence - the Pope had his own executioner after all - but the scale of the inquisition is often overblown. But in present Christianity, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or otherwise, there simply is no equivalent. Which is really the point. Christianity was reformed; Islam never has been. To hope that it might be in the future while increasing Muslim numbers in the West is playing Russian roulette.

 

[Trausti]

Do you need a list of Muslim intellectuals and journalists attacked and murdered?

The question is not whether one side has loonies eager to do violence - any side does, but whether it is significantly more than any of the other side.
Christians in recent decades have killed orders of magnitudes more Muslims than vice versa.

This is just nonsense.

Any neutral observer can see who is under attack by whom

Yeah, just ask the Christians in Nigeria.

 

[Trausti]

About a million in Iraq - in the name of freedom and secularism

The Iraq war wasn't about religion; in no instance did the US try to prevent Muslims from practicing their religion or convert them to Christianity.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Why should I deny a boring strawman? I´m arguing for secularism and against religious extremism and you say I´m like the inquisition? Why should I bother engaging with someone who either has no reading comprehension or is just dishonest? Either way, nothing positive can come out of talking with you.

Yet you keep defending the strawman of the Islamic threat.

There are many problems in EU society. Most of which can be led to long term neglect by out politicians, a series of (trade) wars outside of our control and combined with an ever increasing idea that taxing companies and the ultra rich should not happen, thus bleeding money upward without getting any investment in the rest of our countries in return.

And the alt-right and the media under their control have been performing a decades long witch hunt, blaming everything on immigrants and especially Muslims. Crime is down in most of the EU, but every time a Muslim commits a crime this is blown up all over the media. Every time some radical Muslim says something horrible the same happens. But if (for instance) we find that the AfD internal communication is full on Nazi, it gets a small mention, if at all, with the caveat that these are of course just individuals, not representative of the group.

There is also the fact that each time an anti-immigrant party came to power their government is a mixture of total incompetence, infighting, corruption and destruction of freedoms for everyone, while none of the problems they claimed to solve vanished. Not even the immigrants, as our nations need those to keep running.

 

[Abooga]

Yet you keep defending the strawman of the Islamic threat.

There are many problems in EU society. Most of which can be led to long term neglect by out politicians, a series of (trade) wars outside of our control and combined with an ever increasing idea that taxing companies and the ultra rich should not happen, thus bleeding money upward without getting any investment in the rest of our countries in return.

And the alt-right and the media under their control have been performing a decades long witch hunt, blaming everything on immigrants and especially Muslims. Crime is down in most of the EU, but every time a Muslim commits a crime this is blown up all over the media. Every time some radical Muslim says something horrible the same happens. But if (for instance) we find that the AfD internal communication is full on Nazi, it gets a small mention, if at all, with the caveat that these are of course just individuals, not representative of the group.

There is also the fact that each time an anti-immigrant party came to power their government is a mixture of total incompetence, infighting, corruption and destruction of freedoms for everyone, while none of the problems they claimed to solve vanished. Not even the immigrants, as our nations need those to keep running.

When muslims commit crimes it´s not overblown by the mainstream media, it´s usually quite the opposite, it´s hidden and whitewashed. I personally found it quite jarring and evident for years with Spanish media. There were clearly guidelines and crimes by locals (the famous gang-rape of "la manada" for example) were amplified to the extreme while similar and much worse crimes made by immigrants hardly made headlines. Leftist media (El Pais etc) had a clear bias towards whitewashing islam, continuously denouncing criticism of islam as islamophobia and being very cautious of criticising islam itself. This went on for years.

A couple of years ago they admitted they were doing this (https://gaceta.es/espana/pp-y-psoe-...medios-de-comunicacion-en-2003-20240619-0338/). For me it was quite blatant and evident for years, before we had confirmation, but of course many people (especially those with ideological blindfolders) denied it. Some of you seem to be in this situation right now. Perhaps you could learn something from this example. Start questioning your assumptions.

We´re bombarded with propaganda to try to convince us that islam is peaceful, that the extremists are an unimportant minority and that there´s nothing to worry about. The propaganda is so effective that for example few people outside of Holland seem to know about the murder of Theo Van Gogh. The grandson of the painter, killed in broad daylight for daring to publish a series of photographs denouncing the evident mysoginy of islam. Left bleeding in the streets with a knife on his chest, holding a letter with threats to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. That this extremely symbolic episode is not widely known, speaks volumes. We´re not talking about a fight among drug dealers or a robbery gone wrong, it´s an era-defining murder, the name Van Gogh alone should have ensured to make headlines and elicit a discussion. Here in Spain hardly anyone has heard of this. This is just an example, but it illustrates the problem.

And of course the far right amplifies these things, and of course they are benefitting from this. They are benefitting from the lack of action and the continuous lies from mainstream political parties and media. Most europeans know that islam (and uncontrolled immigration) are a problem (statistics confirm it). If the only political parties that seem to take this seriously are far right parties of course they will benefit. They are being handed millions of votes in a silver plate.

 

[Mojo]

I think you are the one who should learn some history if you have such a rosy view of the spread of Islam.

But that´s kind of secondary for what I was arguing and gave rise to this thread. Perhaps the title should have been "right wing rising in Europe, thanks to the lack of trust of Europeans in their mainstream political parties, mostly due to their lack of clear positioning against immigration, something most Europeans are demanding" .... but I admit it´s a bit long...

Being against immigration has often been a position we´ve been told that only bigots would support, when it´s quite the opposite in some cases, for example when it comes to islam, the most bigoted and dangerous of the main religions. If you are in favour to Islam to spread, you are helping the spread of bigotry.

Denying these things is helping the right wing. Continue doing so at your peril...

And repeating the right wing's propaganda isn't?

To quote Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Put your analyst on danger money baby, now."

 

[Planigale]

When muslims commit crimes it´s not overblown by the mainstream media, it´s usually quite the opposite, it´s hidden and whitewashed. I personally found it quite jarring and evident for years with Spanish media. There were clearly guidelines and crimes by locals (the famous gang-rape of "la manada" for example) were amplified to the extreme while similar and much worse crimes made by immigrants hardly made headlines. Leftist media (El Pais etc) had a clear bias towards whitewashing islam, continuously denouncing criticism of islam as islamophobia and being very cautious of criticising islam itself. This went on for years.

A couple of years ago they admitted they were doing this (https://gaceta.es/espana/pp-y-psoe-...medios-de-comunicacion-en-2003-20240619-0338/). For me it was quite blatant and evident for years, before we had confirmation, but of course many people (especially those with ideological blindfolders) denied it. Some of you seem to be in this situation right now. Perhaps you could learn something from this example. Start questioning your assumptions.

We´re bombarded with propaganda to try to convince us that islam is peaceful, that the extremists are an unimportant minority and that there´s nothing to worry about. The propaganda is so effective that for example few people outside of Holland seem to know about the murder of Theo Van Gogh. The grandson of the painter, killed in broad daylight for daring to publish a series of photographs denouncing the evident mysoginy of islam. Left bleeding in the streets with a knife on his chest, holding a letter with threats to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. That this extremely symbolic episode is not widely known, speaks volumes. We´re not talking about a fight among drug dealers or a robbery gone wrong, it´s an era-defining murder, the name Van Gogh alone should have ensured to make headlines and elicit a discussion. Here in Spain hardly anyone has heard of this. This is just an example, but it illustrates the problem.

And of course the far right amplifies these things, and of course they are benefitting from this. They are benefitting from the lack of action and the continuous lies from mainstream political parties and media. Most europeans know that islam (and uncontrolled immigration) are a problem (statistics confirm it). If the only political parties that seem to take this seriously are far right parties of course they will benefit. They are being handed millions of votes in a silver plate.

The silence over Mordechai Brafman is interesting. If an arab muslim had opened fire on two Israeli Jews there would have been a great deal of noise, the family would have been investigated, we'd constantly hear about him as an example of how Muslims are terrorists. But because he is Jewish and planned to kill Arab Muslims there has been no reporting on the case for 18 months.

 

[Planigale]

This is just nonsense.



Yeah, just ask the Christians in Nigeria.

Really?

You know this is alt right propaganda.

Most of the attacks attributed to Islamists are simple criminal acts. Muslims are by far the most common victims.

Anti-Islam pogroms carried out by Christians still occur.

Ethnic cleansing of Muslim communities in the Central African Republic

We uncover truth and hold the powerful to account. Take action, donate and join the Amnesty movement to protect human rights.

www.amnesty.org.uk

https://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/2021%20Muslims%20in%20Africa%20Factsheet.pdf

There is a great deal of anti-Muslim violence in India (mostly by Hindus), also in Sri Lanka.