Ed The Fascism Checklist, Trump 2025

[SpuriusMaximus]

Fascism has been essentially a meaningless and useless term since the end of WWII because of its consistent misuse.

I wouldn't say it was meaningless since WW2, but much like other loaded words, it became meaningless in the 21st century. Precisely because of the willy-nilly overuse that you correctly point out.

As the quote from Pixar's Incredibles goes, "When everyone's super, no one will be." Same applies to "fascist" and quite a few other loaded words these days.

 

[dann]

The only thing I see there even remotely connected to that idiotic reductio ad hitlerum, is that she envisioned Voldemort as some kind of Hitler or Stalin. But Voldemort is the VILLAIN. He's the BAD guy. The guy the protagonist (who you're supposed to identify with) is OPPOSING. It doesn't follow in any shape or form that she's pushing any of those two's ideas.

The rest is just bla bla bla, from idiot activists who were looking for something to be offended about, were told to check out the books for something to be offended about, and were dutifully offended

In any case, it doesn't answer my question. Exactly which characters, in which chapter of which book "come straight from the pqges of Der Stürmer"? Complete with the Der Stürmer reference to prove it. Put up or kindly stop polluting the thread with your content-free propaganda drivel.

Maybe you should try to focus on who has claimed what.
I'm not the one who wrote that the things Rowling writes "come straight from the pqges of Der Stürmer."
Gulliver Foyle was:

You whould read her books some time. Her bad guys come straight from the pqges of Der Stürmer.

And I replied to this, writing:

They do indeed! What does that tell you?

My point was the one that you are now making, i.e. that "Voldemort is the VILLAIN. He's the BAD guy," i.e. Rowling criticizes Nazis by basing her bad guys on them, i.e. she is NOT "pushing any of those two's ideas" in the Harry Potter series.
I think it's a bloody awful series but for other reasons.
Return when you have figured out what I'm actually saying.

ETA: Much like you, I assumed that when Gulliver Foyle wrote that Rowling's "bad guys come straight from the pqges of Der Stürmer," he was talking about Voldemort and his allies.
We were both wrong about this, which is what must have contributed to your confusion about what I said:

That she modelled her bad guys on the victims (!!!) of the nazis. The goblins that run the banks, for example, are jews straight out from Julius Streichers worst fantasies.

 

[dann]

I wouldn't say it was meaningless since WW2, but much like other loaded words, it became meaningless in the 21st century. Precisely because of the willy-nilly overuse that you correctly point out.

As the quote from Pixar's Incredibles goes, "When everyone's super, no one will be." Same applies to "fascist" and quite a few other loaded words these days.

The word fascism being meaningless and overused?!!
On the contrary, ahhell demonstrated how underused the word is in the 21st century. He wrote about Trump that ...

... his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism.

And yet he claims that:

But at this point, it pointless and useless to keep pointing and yelling fascist.

But feel free to join ahhell in thinking that what walks like a fascist and talks like a fascist isn't actually a fascist.

 

[plague311]

Trumps current administration is fairly called fascist but its useless to do so, because of the above.

....Especially so now as the left including many democrats have been calling trump a fascist for 12 years and it's clearly had no useful impact.

These two sentences seem to contradict. He was called a fascist during his first administration because the writing was on the wall...every wall...in every building. He flipped every red flag during his first administration and straight up worshipped other dictators. Look at the way he starry-eyed stared at Putin during his whole first administration, and now.

The reason it has had no useful impact is due to the people that vote for him. That's what they wanted. They wanted their man in office forever, and they wanted him to punish those that they see as enemies.

I don't believe I'm lying when I say that Trump would gladly kill those that stand in his way if he were to have the power. Undoubtedly.

So the reason he was called a fascist is because he was, and is, doing everything in his power to become one. Everyone that called him that was right, and you admit as much but are still somehow offended that the word got used.

 

[Resume]

These two sentences seem to contradict. He was called a fascist during his first administration because the writing was on the wall...every wall...in every building. He flipped every red flag during his first administration and straight up worshipped other dictators. Look at the way he starry-eyed stared at Putin during his whole first administration, and now.

The reason it has had no useful impact is due to the people that vote for him. That's what they wanted. They wanted their man in office forever, and they wanted him to punish those that they see as enemies.

I don't believe I'm lying when I say that Trump would gladly kill those that stand in his way if he were to have the power. Undoubtedly.
So the reason he was called a fascist is because he was, and is, doing everything in his power to become one. Everyone that called him that was right, and you admit as much but are still somehow offended that the word got used.

◊◊◊◊, he still wants to execute the Central Park 5. Probably Comey, Shifty Schiff, and the imaginary Antifa Vandals.

 

[ahhell]

These two sentences seem to contradict. He was called a fascist during his first administration because the writing was on the wall...every wall...in every building. He flipped every red flag during his first administration and straight up worshipped other dictators. Look at the way he starry-eyed stared at Putin during his whole first administration, and now.

The reason it has had no useful impact is due to the people that vote for him. That's what they wanted. They wanted their man in office forever, and they wanted him to punish those that they see as enemies.

I don't believe I'm lying when I say that Trump would gladly kill those that stand in his way if he were to have the power. Undoubtedly.

So the reason he was called a fascist is because he was, and is, doing everything in his power to become one. Everyone that called him that was right, and you admit as much but are still s

They are not at odds and the writing was no more on the wall than it was for Reagan or Bush or Clinton, or anyone else. The writing on the wall was that he was a narcistic demagogue not much different form Hugo Chavez.

The reason it had no useful impact is that it is a useless term, especially coming from the left, members of whom have described everyone remotely on the right a fascist since the end of WWII.

Stalin, Mao, and Xi would also kill anyone that stands in their way to power, does that make them fascists? Would calling them fascist have helped?

I still say he is not a fascist. He is an authoritarian sure, his administration is fascisty because he can only get fascists to work for him. If he could get Marxists to work for him, his administration would be a Marxist authoritarian government, so long as they kissed his ass. He does not have an ideology other than self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment and people should do what he says.

ETA: Even though I am absolutely right about all of this, I'm just banging my head against a wall. Like I said, I can't get the right to stop calling folks commies either.

And it doesn't matter if he is a fascist or a Marxist authoritarian (IMHO, is all Marxists but I'll let you "non-authoritarian" Marxist have that in this discussion). Calling him a fascists has had all the impact of the left calling every republican presidential nominee in my lifetime a fascist. Same impact the right calling all the Democrats a commie/socialist has had. Just as folks that don't already agree rolling their eyes.

So my argument is still.
A. He wasn't a fascist, he isn't a fascist, his first administration wasn't fascist.
B. Calling him a fascist them was wrong incorrect which is a big part why continuing to call him a fascist is useless.
C. The last 12 years of calling him a fascist didn't change anything, may have helped get him elected actually.
D. It doesn't actually matter what kind of authoritarian he is.

If a fascist gets put in charge, I might be put in a camp, probably even. If a Marxist gets put in charge I will definitely be put in a camp.

ETA: Its as though nobody has ever heard about the boy who cried wolf. If you have, you'll know that the sheep were all eaten by wolves in the end, not because they weren't wolves though.

 

[plague311]

Hey, if that's what you believe, then you're right that we'll never agree and there's no point in talking about it further because I just think you're flat out wrong.

Have a good one.

 

[ahhell]

I'll do my best, you do the same.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Rather than use the term loosely to mean "anyone I dislike", I defined those common features. It's an objective definition that one may disagree with but should not dismiss, preferring to define Fascism out of existence.

I think it's an 'every accusation is a confession' thing. I don't, of course, see anyone running around calling every politician or party they happen to dislike fascist. I do, however, see a lot of people slapping the 'communist' smear on every idea and person they happen to take issue with. And I mean every idea (let me tell you, being called a communist for wanting more bike lanes and people-friendly spaces instead of parking lots is really something). Also, whereas people like Drumpf fit the definition of fascism almost to a tee, people who yell about communism tend to make themselves scarce when asked to define the term with their own words.

Also, I guess 'hey, the word is meaningsless anyway so can we all agree to just stop using it?' is their last vestige. Pretending a duck isn't a duck only works for so long, especially in the age of being able to Google 'duck'.

 

[ahhell]

I think it's an 'every accusation is a confession' thing. I don't, of course, see anyone running around calling every politician or party they happen to dislike fascist. I do, however, see a lot of people slapping the 'communist' smear on every idea and person they happen to take issue with. And I mean every idea (let me tell you, being called a communist for wanting more bike lanes and people-friendly spaces instead of parking lots is really something). Also, whereas people like Drumpf fit the definition of fascism almost to a tee, people who yell about communism tend to make themselves scarce when asked to define the term with their own words.

Also, I guess 'hey, the word is meaningsless anyway so can we all agree to just stop using it?' is their last vestige. Pretending a duck isn't a duck only works for so long, especially in the age of being able to Google 'duck'.

The thing is, when folks have been calling chickens, cats, and dogs all ducks for years, there is no point in calling a duck a duck because nobody believes that those accusers know what a duck is. I am of the opinion this is true of the people most likely to call thing ducks, communists, and/or fascists.

A drum maybe a trumpet but it doesn't matter because both are instruments.

And yes, the word is meaningless, stop using it because nobody believes the charge no matter how accurate it may be. In fact, some people think the charge is always wrong and a lie, so it is not just useless, it's harmful to the cause.

 

[plague311]

Of course people believe the charge or else no one would be using the word. Just because you, and a few others, don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. As I said previous, you've all but said Trump is a fascist that hires fascists but for some reason want us to invent a new word for it? What the ◊◊◊◊ do you want us to call it then? I get you don't like it, or that you think it's meaningless, or that you think it's been overused, or whatever your problem with it is but this is an actual example of calling a duck (Trump) a duck (fascist). That's his intent, that's what he's working towards, and that's his end game. Bringing up all of those other Republican presidents just goes to show how Republicans have made this trend a central focus of the party since Reagan. Thanks? I guess.

So far I've seen you and whatevertheirnameisnow chastise people for using the word but haven't seen either of you offer anything as an alternative. Well...here's your chance. Tell us what we should call someone who ticks every single box of a wannabe fascist dictator that hires fascists. Thanks in advance.

 

[ahhell]

Of course people believe the charge or else no one would be using the word. Just because you, and a few others, don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. As I said previous, you've all but said Trump is a fascist that hires fascists but for some reason want us to invent a new word for it? What the ◊◊◊◊ do you want us to call it then? I get you don't like it, or that you think it's meaningless, or that you think it's been overused, or whatever your problem with it is but this is an actual example of calling a duck (Trump) a duck (fascist). That's his intent, that's what he's working towards, and that's his end game. Bringing up all of those other Republican presidents just goes to show how Republicans have made this trend a central focus of the party since Reagan. Thanks? I guess.

So far I've seen you and whatevertheirnameisnow chastise people for using the word but haven't seen either of you offer anything as an alternative. Well...here's your chance. Tell us what we should call someone who ticks every single box of a wannabe fascist dictator that hires fascists. Thanks in advance.

That

The charge has been leveled falsely more than correctly in the last 50 years. If you want to change minds, don't level the charge. If you want to preach to the choir, keep doing the same thing do the same effect.

Again, since you or others like you have been calling cows ducks for 50 years, the broken clock finally being correct doesn't mean the clock is accurate.

The other side of this coin is the right calling Dems socialists. Do you believe them? Even when they are calling Mamdani or Bernie Sanders socialist? Do you care if they are correct? You may be a socialist, in which case, you may believe them but you don't care, did you believe them when they called Clinton a socialist? Do you think they know what a socialist is when they correctly call Sanders a socialist?

Then the most important question is, has calling republicans fascist actually done anything useful? Has it kept them from being elected? Has it made you feel better?

Trump is not working toward anything as coherent as a fascist dictatorship, all he's doing is massaging his ego and enriching his children. Everything else is details he doesn't care about or understand.

Call out the specific things you don't like. Exporting immigrants, illegal and legal and citizens to foreign prisons is terrible regardless of the specific ideology. Call out ICE's irresponsible behavior, irresponsible expansion to the point of hiring people that no other law enforcement agency would hire. Callout his stupidity, ignorance, narcissism, clear senescence, etc. Highlight the obvious and extreme corruption, I likely mentioning the "Biden Crime Family" when I do. If it was awful that Hunter Biden got millions from Barisma, how bad is it that the Trumps are getting Billions form China, Russia, and Crypto douche bags.

Repeating "Fascist" is clearly a waste of time, almost as much as me pointing that out.

 

[dirtywick]

mamdani and bernie sanders call themselves socialists

 

[ahhell]

mamdani and bernie sanders call themselves socialists

They do. If only fascism were so clear and meaningful.

 

[dirtywick]

They do. If only fascism were so clear and meaningful.

well, it is. you just don't want people saying it

 

[ahhell]

I will use one more analogy. There are a whole bunch of antisemites in the world, there are also a whole bunch of people who use the accusation of antisemitism as a way to shut down criticism of Israel, there are also people who use the accusation of antisemitism to ignore anything someone has to say about anything else. See the conversation regarding JK Rowling recently or Macklemore. If you've seen is costume from a while back, he's either an antisemite or an ignoramus. I'd bet on one of those options. Even if he's an antisemite, doesn't make him wrong about the current state of affairs in Israel and Palestine. It does mean I won't take it at face value that he is an antisemite and if it comes from the anti-defamation league, I won't even consider their opinion.

If accusation of fascism come from the left, that means nothing. If accusations of communism come from the right, that means as much. In both cases it actually hurts the cause, because that is how most people react.

Keep calling folks fascist if you like but don't expect it to keep actual fascists from gaining power.

 

[ahhell]

That is my primary objection, yelling fascist only helps the fascists gain power. That is incredibly obvious and I've thought I've made the case. Best case, I'm wrong and it does nothing to correctly identify a fascist. Far more likely is a lot of folks hear fascist and think BS, that guy is ok then.

I mean really, from the left this should be obvious. When someone on the right called Obama a socialist or communist did you actually think he was, did that actually make you think he might be? Put yourself in the mindset of someone that only pays attention to politics two or three weeks a year, would that actually make you consider the accusation at all? Those are the people who matter, not me, not you. Those people who are busy with their lives and children.

 

[dirtywick]

yeah, i understand your point of view, you don't need to explain it. you don't want people saying it, it's meaningless, i get it.

i don't agree with you, i think it's fine to call them fascists. i don't think it hurts anything, and i know some people get annoyed by it, and that's just too bad.

edit

and i don't think it helps them gain power, that's silly to me.

 

[Venom]

I think Trump is too non-ideological to be a fascist. He's the quintessential opportunist.

 

[theprestige]

Fascism is a broader political phenomena than Fascist Italy or Mussolini's vague and variable rhetoric. It has observable common features among different countries at different times with different leaders. Rather than use the term loosely to mean "anyone I dislike", I defined those common features. It's an objective definition that one may disagree with but should not dismiss, preferring to define Fascism out of existence.

Really?