Merged Arday life and death

[Emily's Cat]

It's not the crime, it's the cover up.

Well that's a heck of a lot more concise.

 

[Rolfe]

There was simply a lot more to this story than the usual fraudulent professional tale. It had it all. Academic fraud, a wildly improbable life story, this story apparently being believed by a bunch of egghead dons, Arday calling the cops and engaging a Rottweiler law firm to silence Times Higher Education, and on top of that a racism card what with Cofnas finally being the one who brought the story into the public domain.

 

[theprestige]

It's hilarious to me that even an allegedly racist scumbag like Cofnas managed to come up with a merit-based critique of Arday's success story.

@Safe-Keeper , when even someone like Cofnas is arguing against a black man based on merit, that's your sign that your race-mongering rebuttal is on the wrong side of history.

 

[Rolfe]

There are quite a lot of genuine black intellectuals fulminating about this mess and complaining that Arday has given people like them a bad name.

 

[theprestige]

There are quite a lot of genuine black intellectuals fulminating about this mess and complaining that Arday has given people like them a bad name.

Despicable Uncle Toms, every one of them, according to a few of our members.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Oh, Cofnas IS racist, what with his race based IQ ideas. But he was 3 years late to the party of discovering the fraud. He's not the origin, and there were in fact several independent origins. And, as you say, all of them are based on merit alone. He's just the guy who decided to publish it anyway, and damn the consequences. Which came swiftly in the form of him being suspended.

Hard to say if he was motivated by race when he decided to forge ahead. But since it was factual, who cares?

 

[Helen]

I think there are some additional factors that play into this situation.

Consider - was your fraudulent surgeon protected by the medical association, who insisted they were an exemplary surgeon of extreme skill well above others of their same age and experience? Was that surgeon publicly lauded as being the youngest ever and the top of their field, and an example to others? When their fraud was exposed, did the surgeon successfully enlist the police as well as an expensive law firm in order to silence and intimidate those outing them? Did legions of people come out of the woodworks to defend the fraudulent surgeon and attack all those displeased by their fraud, and cast all of them as evil bigots?

If the earlier claims of fraud by Arday had been taken seriously, instead of those questioning them being subjected to threats and intimidation, then I doubt we would ever have heard much about it. Had Cambridge not lauded Arday's unbelievable backstory as so inspirational and put them in front of several spotlights, there would have been much less furore. Had Arday's accusers been treated with a modicum of seriousness rather than being attacked, it would have died down quickly.

Arday's falsehoods were the prompt... but it's been the response that has generated so much interest and argument.

Oh, he was protected (by the Lancet for instance, and by KI here, among others) to begin with, despite some people voicing their doubts, and lauded, very much so, for his experimental techniques, and successes. And a closer look at his claimed results, and former positions, would have exposed him. Once he began killing off patients, his past was looked into, but until then, he was taken at face value.

After he messed up here, he fled to Russia, but even they eventually kicked him out.

He knew that he was a fraud, he knew that he hadn't held the positions he claimed to have held, he knew his research was fraudulent,. His narcissism or grandiosity, or whatever it was, made him continue operating, killing seven of his patients here. The arrogance of this man is monumental, and his career disastrous. He is extremely manipulative, and has lied about being the personal surgeon of a number of famous people (Clintons, Obama, the pope, and so on), and has had a very messy personal life, cheating on his wife and girlfriends, and claiming the Pope was going to host his second wedding, after the divorce hus wife had no idea they were getting.

In every single way Macchiarini is a worse fraud and liar than Arday (whom I am not making excuses for), abd his career was an international one, and yet his story was not discussed clise to as widely as Arday's.

Paolo Macchiarini - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

The claim was that this is not about racism but about maintaining academic standards. The academy has always been compromised by it's exclusivity and networks of wealth. The elite private schools have so much money they don't know what to do with it but they make so the fees high to make sure they keep the lower classes out. Two of the biggest idiots on Trump's team have qualifications even better than Trump's yet they are stuck in a 17th century understanding of how economies work.

There are two types of people who get firsts or higher seconds from prestige universities, rich idiots whose parents bought the degree or really smart types from families rich enough to pay the tuition fees but not buy the degrees.

You're better off hiring so.ebody from a middling university that hires people who know what they're talking about to teach and accept students from all levels of society.

 

[theprestige]

Oh, he was protected (by the Lancet for instance, and by KI here, among others) to begin with, despite some people voicing their doubts, and lauded, very much so, for his experimental techniques, and successes. And a closer look at his claimed results, and former positions, would have exposed him. Once he began killing off patients, his past was looked into, but until then, he was taken at face value.

After he messed up here, he fled to Russia, but even they eventually kicked him out.

He knew that he was a fraud, he knew that he hadn't held the positions he claimed to have held, he knew his research was fraudulent,. His narcissism or grandiosity, or whatever it was, made him continue operating, killing seven of his patients here. The arrogance of this man is monumental, and his career disastrous. He is extremely manipulative, and has lied about being the personal surgeon of a number of famous people (Clintons, Obama, the pope, and so on), and has had a very messy personal life, cheating on his wife and girlfriends, and claiming the Pope was going to host his second wedding, after the divorce hus wife had no idea they were getting.

In every single way Macchiarini is a worse fraud and liar than Arday (whom I am not making excuses for), abd his career was an international one, and yet his story was not discussed clise to as widely as Arday's.

Paolo Macchiarini - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So? No two cases are the same.

 

[Helen]

So? No two cases are the same.

No, they aren't. But why Arday's academic fraud story blew up, while Macchiarini's didn't, despite its much more serious nature, and it's devastating results, is still something to consider.

 

[theprestige]

No, they aren't. But why Arday's academic fraud story blew up, while Macchiarini's didn't, despite its much more serious nature, and it's devastating results, is still something to consider.

What's your theory?

 

[Helen]

Since I've seen this eagerly discussed in Swedish far right forums (and know that this is true in many other countries as well), I think it's quite clear that for many people, who normally couldn't care less about academia, it's about the colour of his skin.

I also know that the Russian propaganda machine is fanning the flames, by throwing this story into them, as they increase their support of these far right movements in most European countries, in order to destabilise the EU and NATO nations.

I am not defending Arday, I just think it's quite interesting to see this story becoming so widely known and discussed in circles that are, in general, quite dismissive of academia as a whole, and that most certainly did not discuss Macchiarini, for instance, despite the fact that he got people killed.

But I assume your question was rhetorical; you knew why - nobody, certainly not you, would have been that confused.

 

[dirtywick]

Since I've seen this eagerly discussed in Swedish far right forums (and know that this is true in many other countries as well), I think it's quite clear that for many people, who normally couldn't care less about academia, it's about the colour of his skin.

I also know that the Russian propaganda machine is fanning the flames, by throwing this story into them, as they increase their support of these far right movements in most European countries, in order to destabilise the EU and NATO nations.

I am not defending Arday, I just think it's quite interesting to see this story becoming so widely known and discussed in circles that are, in general, quite dusmissive of academia as a whole, and that most certainly did not discuss Macchiarini, for instance, despite the fact that he got people killed.

But I assume your question was rhetorical; you knew why - nobody, certainly not you, would have been that confused.

i would say unfortunately this is the case here. of course, many people who found interest in this story are simply because it's anti-woke and anti-dei which they have been pretty heavily propagandized by special interests pushing stupid culture war issues to despise. however, as it pertains to dei anyway, a black man getting a job over a white man because he's black and he didn't earn it is really the core issue with the arguments against woke dei policies, so it becomes pretty difficult to make an argument that skin color isn't a factor.

they'll say they care about academic fraud and it's got nothing to do with race, despite that's pretty core to the situation. and for some people too, i believe them. merit based hiring is good and academic fraud is bad. arday did lie and that's all true. i'm just not so sure they realize they've been propagandized into a white supremacist agenda by the media they consume that never ever talks about academic fraud at any other time, only when it suits their agenda. and so much more egregious cases get much less attention because it doesn't fit the narrative they're trying to push.

but a black guy in england got a job he didn't deserve over a black woman, made up some papers in a field you don't respect and said he ran more than he did, and that's a very serious issue to a bunch of americans. then you've got the secretary of war giving speeches about how they've finally gotten rid of the dei policies, getting rid of all the black generals and admirals as the military becomes less functional by the day. the exact thing they were worried about, but nothing about it. something stinks about that to me. so that's what i can come up with as to what the stank is.

 

[ahhell]

Since I've seen this eagerly discussed in Swedish far right forums (and know that this is true in many other countries as well), I think it's quite clear that for many people, who normally couldn't care less about academia, it's about the colour of his skin.

I also know that the Russian propaganda machine is fanning the flames, by throwing this story into them, as they increase their support of these far right movements in most European countries, in order to destabilise the EU and NATO nations.

I am not defending Arday, I just think it's quite interesting to see this story becoming so widely known and discussed in circles that are, in general, quite dismissive of academia as a whole, and that most certainly did not discuss Macchiarini, for instance, despite the fact that he got people killed.

But I assume your question was rhetorical; you knew why - nobody, certainly not you, would have been that confused.

While you are not wrong about racism on the far right, folks on the far right and near right do care about academia, at least in the US. They think it is a fraud generally and love anything that seems to expose that.

The are not necessarily wrong about that but have the tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

While you are not wrong about racism on the far right, folks on the far right and near right do care about academia, at least in the US. They think it is a fraud generally and love anything that seems to expose that.

The are not necessarily wrong about that but have the tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Some would nuke it from orbit.

(Edited to clarify: I am not pretending to know whether that person is far right or far left.)

(The definition of "pretend" might be of some importance here.)

 

[theprestige]

Since I've seen this eagerly discussed in Swedish far right forums (and know that this is true in many other countries as well), I think it's quite clear that for many people, who normally couldn't care less about academia, it's about the colour of his skin.

I also know that the Russian propaganda machine is fanning the flames, by throwing this story into them, as they increase their support of these far right movements in most European countries, in order to destabilise the EU and NATO nations.

I am not defending Arday, I just think it's quite interesting to see this story becoming so widely known and discussed in circles that are, in general, quite dismissive of academia as a whole, and that most certainly did not discuss Macchiarini, for instance, despite the fact that he got people killed.

But I assume your question was rhetorical; you knew why - nobody, certainly not you, would have been that confused.

In summary, you think that people are only making a big deal about this legitimate concern because of Arday's skin color.

Which, yeah. Cambridge set him up for failure because of his skin color. Cambridge made a big deal of him to the wider world because of his skin color. This whole debacle is about skin color. Stop perverting EDI ideals into racist implementations and racist celebrations, and Cambridge stops getting called out for walking face-first into the obvious and appropriate criticisms.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I am not defending Arday, I just think it's quite interesting to see this story becoming so widely known and discussed in circles that are, in general, quite dismissive of academia as a whole, and that most certainly did not discuss Macchiarini, for instance, despite the fact that he got people killed.

Macchiarini got jail time. The guy who recruited him to the Karolinska Institutet resigned. The guy who had originally cleared him of misconduct also resigned. Most of his research papers have been retracted. Bit late, but not a lot more to discuss about it.

Plus, AFAIK, you didn't have hordes of people defending him on forums. I mean, even this thread here would have died and been forgotten, but instead we got 61 pages of people screaming racism if you even doubt Arday's credentials.

 

[Helen]

Macchiarini got jail time. The guy who recruited him to the Karolinska Institutet resigned. The guy who had originally cleared him of misconduct also resigned. Most of his research papers have been retracted. Bit late, but not a lot more to discuss about it.

Plus, AFAIK, you didn't have hordes of people defending him on forums. I mean, even this thread here would have died and been forgotten, but instead we got 61 pages of people screaming racism if you even doubt Arday's credentials.

Macchiarini got jail time many years after he started his fraudulent career in Italy, the US, Sweden and Russia, and the men who recruited and defended him also resigned several years after the fact. There were no hordes of people either defending or condemning him, but there were certainly a great many people who defended/condemned him.

I am not screaming racism about how Arday's career ended, I'm saying that racists, who would never pay any attention to academic fraud otherwise, have run with this, supported by the Russian desinformation machine.

And @theprestige, I am not saying that people in academia, or people concerned with academic fraud, only care about this because of race. I am saying that it has blown up out of all proportion, because of people who are definitely racist.

It has even been used in the general election (on the 13th) campaign here, by the very far right, as an example of how important it is to keep "Sweden Swedish".

Not all people who condemnArday's fraud are racist, all academic fraud should be condemned. Some people who condemn Arday are racist, and many of those racists are using it to spread distrust, and misinformation, for political reasons that have nothing to do with academic fraud.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Yes, but I mean, look at how this thread even started. It wasn't started by people wanting to join in bashing Arday. We were all content with thinking "rest in peace" and leaving it at that. I myself didn't even bother joining until page 13. It was started by people wanting to go 'OMG, right wingers killed Arday.' And if it's a discussion they want, a discussion they get.

AFAIK Macchiarini didn't get an 'OMG <insert political side> is persecuting Macchiarini' thread, or not on any forum I was on. Otherwise we'd have discussed that too.

I mean, Jaysus, you know I don't back away even from discussing anime

 

[Darat]

...snip..

Plus, AFAIK, you didn't have hordes of people defending him on forums. I mean, even this thread here would have died and been forgotten, but instead we got 61 pages of people screaming racism if you even doubt Arday's credentials.

That is not anything like an accurate summary of this thread.