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Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

Which is, in itself, a good reason for treating christianity with a very hefty amount of suspicion.
That's a typical, but unwarranted criticism.
Do you critisize a doctor for being a specialist instead of GP?

I mean, if all you christianists can't agree among yourselves what it is you actually believe in I'm at a loss as to why any of the rest of us should take any of it remotely seriously.
The creeds lay out the core beliefs. Everything else is icing on the cake.
You can have a red cake, or a blue cake. Both are still cake.
 
I suppose that's a matter of opinion.
Is abortion murder? (subjective human morality?)

I just realized that I asked that question of someone with "zygote" in their username. - LOL

Please, by all means, show us where the Tanakh defines abortion as murder.

But you're still evading the issue. Why did a just god command the murder of women for determining their own sexual partners? Why did a just god codify the "proper" way to own slaves?
Hint: it's because humans made up those laws and ascribed them to a supernatural authority so they wouldn't have to debate them with anyone.
 
And there it is. You just cherry pick the ones you like best, regardless of actual translational fidelity. Now you're seeing why there are so many religious denominations.
Who determines which Bible has "translational fidelity"?
And what becomes of all the others?
They already tried to do that with the King James Version.

But what you're describing isn't comparative study. It's just going with the one you like best. The comparative study has already been done by people who are experts in Koine Greek with access to the whole of the available textual witnesses, many of which weren't available to the translators of the KJV.
Every Bible translation is different. (with many similarities)

Each READER choose the one that works BEST for them.

Old translation, new, paraphrase, study... themed? Illustrated?
 
Please, by all means, show us where the Tanakh defines abortion as murder.
Exodus 20:13 ~ “You shall not murder."

You can't kill a baby without killing a baby.
Human DNA is determined at conception.

But you're still evading the issue. Why did a just god command the murder of women for determining their own sexual partners? Why did a just god codify the "proper" way to own slaves?
I don't know.

Slavery was a fact of life in early times.
I would say the law made it humane.
The alternative was genocide.
Would you preferred that?
 
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That's a typical, but unwarranted criticism.
Do you critisize a doctor for being a specialist instead of GP?
😁
Doctors base their practice of medicine on medical science. You don't have multiple denominations of doctors differing on methodologies and pathologies based on conflicting translations of conflicting, centuries old, hand written copies attributed to the inspiration of magical beings. This is a sad attempt to legitimize dogmatic arguments based on magical thinking by analogizing it with something based on empirical evidence and scientific consensus.
The creeds lay out the core beliefs. Everything else is icing on the cake.
You can have a red cake, or a blue cake. Both are still cake.
Right... But there's also the matter of the old fruit cake everyone pretends isn't still on the menu that says you can have your cake made by slaves with icing made from the blood of a woman murdered for the "crime" of having sex with a partner of her own choice.
 
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Please, by all means, show us where the Tanakh defines abortion as murder.
Why would you limit sources?

Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Jeremiah 1:5 ~ "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
 
That's a typical, but unwarranted criticism.
Do you critisize a doctor for being a specialist instead of GP?


The creeds lay out the core beliefs. Everything else is icing on the cake.
You can have a red cake, or a blue cake. Both are still cake.

Not a relevant comparison at all. Your suggestion is like a cardiologist telling a nephrologist that kidneys don't exist or an orthopod pretending gastro-enterology isn't real.

And, as one brought up in a particular flavour of christianness, even adherents of that flavour can't agree on the basics, let alone any of the other flavours, so said criticism is totally warranted based on what christianists actually say, write and do.
 
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Who determines which Bible has "translational fidelity"?
Again, people who are fluent in the original language of the texts, and who have access to all the earliest texts and textual fragments, and are well versed in the academics of history of the regions in which Christianity developed.

But here's the thing, those scholars know that the best we can do is determine what range of beliefs Christians had at a certain point in the growth of the religion. They can identify many changes introduced to the texts through scribal errors, deliberate alterations and interpolations. And even if we could know what the various books and letters of the new testament said when they were first written, we wouldn't know what was added or omitted from the actual events surrounding the life and death of the historical Jesus during the years and decades of oral transmission before the writing of the texts, both canonical and apocryphal, claiming to tell the true story. They know that, barring some extraordinary finds, there's just no knowing what the original texts said, much less what actually transpired regarding Jesus' life and death, and they don't try to say that. It's only those committed to religious dogma who assert that they can determine the True® meaning of Jesus' teachings.
And what becomes of all the others?
Same that becomes of any other ancient texts, like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the Trials of Hercules.
They already tried to do that with the King James Version.
What's that, you say? Scholars worked to create a more accurate English translation of the Bible, and some Christians dogmatically clung to a 400 year old translation with numerous known problems?
Every Bible translation is different. (with many similarities)

Each READER choose the one that works BEST for them.

Old translation, new, paraphrase, study... themed? Illustrated?
And if the original meaning of the texts has been lost, then everyone picks a version that is wrong.

You keep openly admitting that you're ultimately basing your doctrinal choices on which selection "works for you". It's remarkably telling that you seem unable to see the complete lack of logical process in that method.
 
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Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?
Doctrinal unity is one ideal. But then there's the matter of simply getting it right. If you tell us our beliefs on such things as the creation are going to determine whether we have a good afterlife or a bad afterlife, then it seems important to get it right. People used to be killed for not getting it right.

The rich man was told he had to choose between his wealthy lifestyle or his eternal salvation. There was no addendum that let him maintain his own beliefs and still be saved.

If so, who should decide what those beliefs should be?
Indeed, who? You've reserved the right to decide for yourself how much Christianity to believe. Yet when we make that same decision for ourselves, somehow you say God has a problem with that. Seems like special pleading.

On the matter of God's alleged corporeality:
I would say, Yes. But that's just my opinion.
The physical nature of God seems to be something that's important to get right. You've managed to commit a heresy in all of Catholicism, Judaism, Protestantism, and Evangelicalism. Once again, the only major sect that agrees with you is (drum roll) the Mormons. But you still refuse to talk about whether the Christian God has his naughty bits intact.

Just as there were Christians before there was a New Testament, there were Jews before there was an Old Testament. And they all followed widely varying oral traditions. They didn't worship only YHWH, but also the various gods of the surrounding regions. These were all corporeal gods that looked like people. YHWH was also a corporeal god. They all had magical powers, but they also all had naughty bits—some of them, very prodigious naughty bits because fertility was a big part of believing in gods back then. And they had male and female naught ybits because there were both gods and goddesses.

When early Jewish elders and scholars (not Moses) started to assemble the Torah, there was no One True oral tradition that prevailed. The first creation account is in the priestly tradition. The second is in the Yahwist tradition. They are vastly different, specifically on how and when humans were created. These accounts corresponded to geographic distinctions. When the goal is to unite the nation, you don't necessarily want to blend them together and lose the essence of both, and thus the cohesion you're trying to create. Each tradition can point to the Torah and say, "Yep, our preferred version is preserved in holy writ."

But all traditions are much, much older than the first attempts to write them down and codify them. As such, they are polytheistic. "Let us create..." was not just a narrative device. It was a full-blown design committee. And the "image of God" problem was solved as far as the naughty bits went. Humans were created with male and female genitals because the gods and goddesses had male and female genitals. Those deities were, among other things, fertility symbols. They were created in the image of the gods because the gods looked like humans. That's why I said was important for you to tell me whether God had male genitals. It tells me how faithful you are to the original stories.

The transition from a corporeal humanoid pantheon to a single incorporeal spirit began with the destruction of the temple and continued into Judaism's encounters with Greek thought. But doing so required them to basically redefine certain words in the creation accounts to mean exactly the opposite of their original literal meaning. This is what happens when you decide what you want to believe and then try to shoehorn it into your canon. It's basically ordinary philosophy with a smattering of cherry-picked, badly-interpreted scripture. The reformulation of God to be a generic omnipresent mist of righteousness is a very late addition to all these stories and traditions, and it really cannot be squared with the source materials, or even logically with itself. It's so easy to get theists all tied up in knots in their shoelaces as they try to tap dance through a Neo-Platonic minefield of inconsistency.

The problem comes when religionists try to have it both ways. God's ways are allegedly higher than man's ways, and God must be obeyed if we are to be saved. Therefore if God tell us to do something mean like persecute gays or kill Muslims in order to be saved, we don't have a choice. It may seem horrible by human standards, that's just too bad. The religionist's conscience is sacrosanct, and doing undesirable things like persecuting his fellow beings or selling all his possessions is just the price he pays for his faith. He's compelled to inconvenient obedience at the peril of his eternal soul.

But if it's true that you get to just pick and choose which of these beliefs to hold onto, then you lose everything. A canon of independent holy writ and doctrinal unity are your saving throw. That's how you differentiate beliefs that "come from God" and have that authority from beliefs that are just "what I want to do," which have no more authority than anyone else's. Being a jerk to others on the basis of a "sincerely held religious belief" gets a pass. Being a jerk to others on the basis of, "I don't like those people" shouldn't—and doesn't. So no, your cafeteria approach completely undermines any moral authority you might claim as a believer in God.

Finally, once you've admitted that you can apply logic, reason, and evidence to determine what and how much of your religion to believe, you have zero justification for calling out people who do the same thing and conclude that they don't want to believe in any of it. They're just doing what you do, only more so. You're either all in or a skeptic to some degree.
 
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But you're still evading the issue. Why did a just god command the murder of women for determining their own sexual partners?
I've given this a bit more thought.

I think most marriages at that time were arranged. Women weren't free to choose their own mate.
Extended families lived together. The men (husbands) owned everything and everyone in their clan.
Some marriages were political in nature. Connecting clans for political gain. (safety in numbers)

So, a daughter that was off chasing men was putting herself and her family at risk. Very bad behavior.
 
Rusty, your beliefs are clearly affected by living in the US and twisting them to fit society.

What would change if you were asked to teach and preach to christian folk in rural Africa or S. America where morals and society were very different?

Mexican christians tend to accept old Aztec and Inca beliefs as add ons to the core faith. Rome doesn't care. The JW and other fundies here are pure living, no bad words, strict adherence to the word as written but no mention of who presents those words to the flock. Much different than the typical lazy Xmas/easter/wedding and funeral churchgoers.

It's nothing you have ever experienced for your own faith. Even the Santa Muetro faith uses the base of the catholic mass and many teachings for a very different god. Tied into some gruesome Aztec and voodoo stuff too. Rome finally said that was too far in 1983.

Truth is you are but another strange interpretation in a sea of different versions. My dad was one in the fundies crowd until blessed dementia saved those around him. He had memorized the old testament at one time. Or so he said.
All drops of faithful water in an ocean of incoherent ideas.
The bronze age is long past for most. Humans have learned so much making the old mythology a historic side note.
 
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If you tell us our beliefs on such things as the creation are going to determine whether we have a good afterlife or a bad afterlife, then it seems important to get it right.
I'm not saying that. In the grand scheme of things, origins is a lesser issue.

You've reserved the right to decide for yourself how much Christianity to believe. Yet when we make that same decision for ourselves, somehow you say God has a problem with that.
I thought I said it will all be sorted out in the end. Unfortunately, I think you took that as a threatening statement. Not what I meant.
 
What would change if you were asked to teach and preach to christian folk in rural Africa or S. America where morals and society were very different?
Good question.
I would certainly have to take the cultural differences into account.

I know a missionary that went to Germany where drinking beer was common.
Behavior like that was not acceptable in the churches here in the USA that were supporting them.
 
I'm not saying that. In the grand scheme of things, origins is a lesser issue.
Who decided that? It's literally Chapter 1 of your holy writ. You've spent a big part of your time in this forum arguing that we have to get cosmology right, and the Big Bang doesn't cut it. You've argued that we have to get the origins of life right, abiogenesis doesn't cut it. You trotted out Pascal's wager to make sure we understood the stakes. If now you're telling us that these are just irrelevant details then it seems you're coming around to our way of thinking. God doesn't care if we believe in the Big Bang or abiogenesis.

I thought I said it will all be sorted out in the end. Unfortunately, I think you took that as a threatening statement. Not what I meant.
What did you mean? What does "sorted out" mean? If "making it up as you go" works for thee, why not also for me?
 
Exodus 20:13 ~ “You shall not murder."
Unless YHWH tells you to murder every man, woman (except the virgins) and child (just the male ones) in that village on that land he said was yours to take.
You can't kill a baby without killing a baby.
Human DNA is determined at conception.
If human DNA is what determines life, then shouldn't we consider masturbation murder? How about taking a blood sample? Shouldn't we hold a full on funeral every time a fertilized egg spontaneously fails after a few days?

Personally, I think birth is a terrible metric for determining the start of a life. But I also think that the moment of fertilization of an ovum is a ridiculous metric.
I don't know.

Slavery was a fact of life in early times.
Yes, it was. It's also a fact that the book you claim to be the inspired word of your god not only fails to condemn slavery, or even question it, but actively codifies it, establishing the rules by which one is permitted to own, sell and even commit violent acts of discipline against one's slaves.
I would say the law made it humane.
Yeah, by saying that you couldn't beat your slaves to the point that you permanently maimed them (nothing about the psychological damage that might be inflicted). It also codified how long you could keep a fellow Hebrew in debt slavery. Seven years, which was a helluva lot longer to someone who was beating the odds if he survived past thirty. Of course, non Hebrew slaves, or any women, were yours until they died or you decided to sell them. And the female slaves were yours to ◊◊◊◊, if you wanted, as they were your property. And there was even a provision for keeping your male Hebrew slaves for life. All you had to do was give him a slave wife, and let them have kids. Then after seven years of indenture, let him choose between going free and never seeing his wife and kids (also now your slaves) again, or remaining as your slave for life.

It's almost like the law was written by the small percentage of literate elites who benefited the most from the institution of slavery. Peculiar, eh?
The alternative was genocide.
Only if you followed YHWH's commands to commit genocide.
Would you preferred that?
Actually, I'd prefer that people admit that slavery has always been immoral and stop pretending that their current morality comes from an unquestionable divinity, rather than evolving in spite of the codes attributed to it by Bronze Age tribes that used to practice child sacrifice.
 
Why would you limit sources?

Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Jeremiah 1:5 ~ "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
All ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, because we have the verses where God specifically commands the Hebrews to shed innocent blood. The mythology of the conquest of Canaan is filled with tales of slaughtering the innocent, including children. Killing everyone but the virgin girls also includes killing pregnant women.

Oh, and killing a young woman (generally at an age that we today would consider still a child) because she doesn't bleed when her new husband has sex with her the first time is also murdering someone innocent.
 
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