Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

[JayUtah]

I'm not familiar with the LDS claims of supernatural events.

Really? You're not aware of their well-known prophet's claims of personally taking to God face-to-face and of translating through divine means an ancient language that literally no one else understood?

In any case, I'm making you aware of it now. Mormons make specific claims of supernatural occurrences not shared by other religions. These include angelic visitations, visions, and prophecies delivered by historically Abrahamic characters. The Mormons write them down and circulate them. Now you tell me that if someone writes down a supernatural claim and publishes it, we have some obligation to take it at face value. But you seem to be rejecting some of those claims out of hand while accepting others. We need to home in on your criteria for doing so.

But considering the source, I probably wouldn't agree.

What source? Disagree with what?

 

[Mojo]

I would say that is true of the Bible as well.

What evidence for do you have for what's in the Bible, other than the Bible?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Fair enough. But...
The next Sunday morning, the man testified before the church that God had healed him on the spot.
While I prayed for him, my hands were "on fire" with the power of the Holy Spirit.
I asked him if he could feel anything. He remarked about the "tremendous heat" on his back.

 

[Mojo]

Yes.
Disadvantaged by narrow-mindedness. - LOL

No, it's narrow mindedness that makes people bit.

 

[Darat]

The man arrived at the meeting walking with a cane. (limping)
He was in terrible pain.

I walk in terrible pain all the time, have done for decades people have prayed over me never helped, anti-TNF biologicals have.

 

[Mojo]

Rusty Tyler said:
I'm asking you to treat it differently than other books.

I suppose you already are by trashing it constantly.

Any other ancient books that you would trash?
I didn't think so. What does that tell you?

Do you want us to treat the Bible differently from other books or the same as other books?

 

[JayUtah]

The next Sunday morning, the man testified before the church that God had healed him on the spot.

It's quite likely that's what he believed happen. However, determining whether that's actually what did happen requires more than just someone's say-so.

While I prayed for him, my hands were "on fire" with the power of the Holy Spirit.

What data did you gather and what experiments did you perform to determine whether that was actually the cause of your sensation?

I asked him if he could feel anything. He remarked about the "tremendous heat" on his back.

What makes you think this had anything phenomenologically to do with your claimed outcome?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I've frequently come home limping in terrible pain from work, begging my wife to let me rest and heal... till she suggests a little action and then JESUS CHRIST IT'S A MIRICLE HEALING!!!

That's weird, I suggest a little action and suddenly my wife HAS a headache! It's an anti-miracle

 

[Rusty Tyler]

I'm just inclined to put the experience down to the same effect as similar 'healing' in people who don't share the same religion, such as the casting out of djinn in Islam.

I think healing can be accomplished by those outside of Christianity.
If you believe in it you can do it.

Mark 9:38-41 NIV
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name
and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name
can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name
because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

It's quite likely that's what he believed happen.

LOL
All the evidence says "YES!!!"
But you still don't believe it.

 

[Darat]

Really? You're not aware of their well-known prophet's claims of personally taking to God face-to-face and of translating an ancient language that literally no one else understood?

In any case, I'm making you aware of it now. Mormons make specific claims of supernatural occurrences not shared by other religions. These include angelic visitations, visions, and prophecies delivered by historically Abrahamic characters. The Mormons write them down and circulate them. Now you tell me that if someone writes down a supernatural claim and publishes it, we have some obligation to take it at face value. But you seem to be rejecting some of those claims out of hand while accepting others. We need to home in on your criteria for doing so.

....snip...

And Muslim's have the concept of Karamah, including healings through the power of prayer, and Hindus have miracles and healings coming out of every chakra!

 

[Mojo]

I would say that is true of the Bible as well.

More was happening than what was recorded.

John 21:25 NIV
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Keep doing it, I'll keep posting it.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It's quite likely that's what he believed happen. However, determining whether that's actually what did happen requires more than just someone's say-so.


What data did you gather and what experiments did you perform to determine whether that was actually the cause of your sensation?


What makes you think this had anything phenomenologically to do with your claimed outcome?

"Are You Smarter Than A Nine Year Old?" Special Magic Healing Edition

Emily Rosa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mojo]

...such as the casting out of djinn in Islam.

Well obviously they would cast out gin.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

What data did you gather and what experiments did you perform to determine whether that was actually the cause of your sensation?

LOL
Are you nuts?
No one does that.
I don't need proof that Jesus heals.
I already believe it.

Family Miracles in Healing Rooms | Testimonies | Bethel Church Redding, CA

A family, including the mother, a baby, and a nine-year-old, gets touched by God and receives healing for various health issues during a Friday night service at Bethel.

www.bethel.com

 

[Pixel42]

Rusty Tyler said:
I'm asking you to treat it differently than other books.

I suppose you already are by trashing it constantly.

I haven't trashed it at all. I've just pointed out why it's perfectly understandable that its authors got a lot wrong. They were, inevitably, ignorant of all the facts that were not discovered until after they died.

Any other ancient books that you would trash?

Ancient books about astrology, alchemy etc also contradict what we now know to be fact. If I point that out I am not trashing them either because their authors, too, did the best they could with the limited knowledge and understanding that they had.

I didn't think so. What does that tell you?

That you're wrong yet again.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Well obviously they would cast out gin.

I never cast out gin. If anyone wants gin cast out, cast it in my direction.

 

[Thermal]

LOL
All the evidence says "YES!!!"
But you still don't believe it.

Evidence is not being presented. an unverifiable anecdote is. That's a major evidentiary distinction to skeptics.

This joint isn't about latching on to beliefs. It's about considering evidence that is stronger than 'Some dude told me about this miracle thingy he saw. Whaddya mean, can I show evidence?"

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Evidence is not being presented. an unverifiable anecdote is. That's a major evidentiary distinction to skeptics.

This joint isn't about latching on to beliefs. It's about considering evidence that is stronger than 'Some dude told me about this miracle thingy he saw. Whaddya mean, can I show evidence?"

Anyway, my wife's hairdresser's second cousin says he was there and it didn't happen.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Rusty Tyler said:
I asked him if he could feel anything. He remarked about the "tremendous heat" on his back.

What makes you think this had anything phenomenologically to do with your claimed outcome?

Why were my hands burning up with heat?

This was extraordinary, but not foreign to me.
I was used to warmth on my hands during worship times.
Usually felt like delicate flames flickering on my upward palms.