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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

The Great Zaganza said:
How about for the Americans who should be able to make an informed decision on whether to support this war?
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Hegseth has already explicitly said he doesn’t want Donald Trump to look bad. That is the key variable here. Not to inform the American public. Not even the flimsy excuse that Ziggurat is proposing - to stop the Iranians from getting damage assessments, but to prevent Donald Trump looking bad.
 
Ziggurat said:
Because our spending helped ensure the Soviets never attacked. You can't treat that as cost-free to the US since war never broke out. It wasn't cost free. Not even close.
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Good point because the U.S. certainly never had an interest in preventing the Soviet Union from taking over Europe. Our defense of Europe was purely altruistic so how dare they not come to our aid in this dumb pointless war we started without consulting them and are now losing.
 
johnny karate said:
Good point because the U.S. certainly never had an interest in preventing the Soviet Union from taking over Europe.
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We had an interest in that. Europe had even more interest in that.

We subsidized the defense of Europe. There's really no getting around that.
 
Ziggurat said:
If that was true, then NATO was superfluous from the start, and no one should decry its demise.

No. Individual European countries supported the US. The EU did not. There is no EU defense force.

And which three times are you talking about? I presume Afghanistan is one. What are the other two you're thinking of? Iraq? Libya? Something else?

Nobody is asking any European country to put boots on the ground. The US is asking to use bases and air space (which doesn't cost the EU anything), and for our European allies to help contribute to freedom of navigation. That latter one does require a commitment, but it's a commitment to something that the EU should have considerable interest in.

If the EU doesn't care about maintaining freedom of navigation, well, there are consequences to that.
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Weird that when we ◊◊◊◊ on our allies and then start a dumb pointless war with no clear strategy or goals they aren’t rushing to help us. It’s almost if diplomacy is important.
 
U.S. Central Command
@CENTCOM
"Now in our 5th week of the campaign, it is my operational assessment that we are making undeniable progress. We don't see their navy sailing. We don't see their aircraft flying, and their air and missile defense systems have largely been destroyed." - Adm. Brad Cooper, CENTCOM Commander
 
johnny karate said:
Weird that when we ◊◊◊◊ on our allies and then start a dumb pointless war with no clear strategy or goals they aren’t rushing to help us. It’s almost if diplomacy is important.
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What's weird is how reluctant they are to help themselves.
 
Ziggurat said:
We had an interest in that. Europe had even more interest in that.

We subsidized the defense of Europe. There's really no getting around that.
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No one’s denying that just like there’s no denying that it benefitted the U.S. to do so.

None of that obligates other NATO members to help us now in this dumb pointless war we started for no reason.

Feel free to point to anything in the NATO agreement that contradicts that.
 
johnny karate said:
No one’s denying that
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No, they aren't. But they are ignoring it.
johnny karate said:
None of that obligates other NATO members to help us now in this dumb pointless war we started for no reason.
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Sure, the NATO treaty doesn't obligate them to.

But when NATO members don't even let us use their airspace (which costs them nothing), that does call into question why we're subsidizing Europe's defense. Because the NATO treaty doesn't obligate us to do that either.
 
johnny karate said:
Help themselves do what?
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Help themselves maintain their own right to freedom of navigation.

Maybe Europe just doesn't understand the value of that, and what it costs to maintain. They certainly don't act like they understand.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, they aren't. But they are ignoring it.

Sure, the NATO treaty doesn't obligate them to.

But when NATO members don't even let us use their airspace (which costs them nothing), that does call into question why we're subsidizing Europe's defense. Because the NATO treaty doesn't obligate us to do that either.
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We subsidize their defense because it benefits us and has allowed us to maintain our status as the world’s leading super power. Retreating from that will weaken us and diminish our status even more so than the Trump administration has already done.

Other nations not wanting to participate in a dumb pointless war we started for no reason is a perfectly reasonable position to take and there is no valid argument why they should.
 
Ziggurat said:
Help themselves maintain their own right to freedom of navigation.

Maybe Europe just doesn't understand the value of that, and what it costs to maintain. They certainly don't act like they understand.
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What freedom of navigation would they lose if they don’t agree to our demands to help us in this dumb pointless war we started for no reason?
 
Ziggurat said:
Help themselves maintain their own right to freedom of navigation.

Maybe Europe just doesn't understand the value of that, and what it costs to maintain. They certainly don't act like they understand.
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There was no problem with navigation until Donald decided he needed a distraction from his collapsing economy and Epstein.
 
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