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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

Planigale said:
Biden got a law passed so Trump can't pull out of Nato. It takes 2/3 majority of senate to abrogate the treaty or an act of congress. He can threaten all he wants but he can't actually pull out of NATO and he can't kick anyone out of NATO. To quote Will, 'full of sound and fury signifying nothing'.
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You are correct that he can't pull out of NATO. He can, however, reduce our level of investment in NATO. That's not dictated by the treaty.
 
Ziggurat said:
"Afghanistan" was not a state in the traditional sense. Al Qaeda did attack the US, and they were based in the region known as Afghanistan. So there absolutely was a NATO obligation to support the US there. You can argue all you want about how that war was handled, but if you don't understand why this was an absolutely legitimate Article V invocation, you're not even worth discussing this with.

Iraq was different than Afghanistan. NATO was never invoked, though many NATO members participated. For the 1991 Iraq war, I'm not sure why attacking the US is the relevant metric. They attacked and occupied Kuwait. The first gulf war was fought to expel Iraq from Kuwait, and had the support of the United Nations security council. European nations weren't sticking their necks out for us, they were participating in a joint UN effort to defend Kuwait's sovereignty. Is that not sufficient justification? Do you really think that was dubious? Russia didn't attack any NATO or EU members, but both organizations are quite invested in helping Ukraine against Russia, and desperately want the US to as well. How is that any different?

For the 2003 Iraq war, the only two European nations to provide boots on the ground were the UK and Poland. Don't pretend that this was some general European support, it wasn't.
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Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
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It is arguable that the security of the North Atlantic area had been restored prior to the invasion of Afghanistan. Given that the Taliban weren't a threat to the US and the main justification was to capture bin Laden (and other involved in 9/11), I think the claim that article 5 was applicable was dubious. Even the continued existence of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan probably didn't in reality threaten the security of the North Atlantic.
 
Can I just note that NATO is both not the topic here - having no involvement in the Zionist/American sneak attack on Iran - and is also allowing the MAGA/Trumpists to avoid discussing their bloke starting a war that they've now irrevocably lost.
 
'False and baseless': Iran's foreign ministry denies country has asked US for ceasefire

Iran's foreign ministry says President Donald Trump's claim that the country has asked for a ceasefire is "false and baseless".

Iranian state TV is reporting the remarks as having been said by foreign ministry spokesman Esmaeil Baqaei.

It comes after Trump said earlier in a Truth Social post that Iran's "New Regime President", who he did not name, had asked for a ceasefire - and that he would consider it "when Hormuz Strait is open, free, and clear".

www.bbc.co.uk

Iran denies Trump's claim it requested ceasefire, calling it 'false and baseless'

Donald Trump earlier said Iran's "New Regime President" had asked for a ceasefire - without specifying who he was referring to.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
CNN: We have new CNN polling showing how the country feels about this war.

Just a third of Americans approve of how the president is handling his role of commander in chief, as well as the war.

Two thirds disapprove of the decision to take military action in Iran, and strong opposition has grown 12 points since the start of the war.

63% of Americans say that they believe it's likely that the war will turn into a long term military conflict.

Nearly 7 in 10 oppose sending U.S. Ground troops into Iran.

71% say they don't want congress to authorize $200 billion for further military action in Iran.

Link
 
Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell and Democratic Sen. Chris Coons issue joint statement defending NATO after Donald Trump said he’s “strongly considering” withdrawing the U.S. from the alliance:

“The only time NATO has gone to war has been in response to an attack on America. NATO troops fought and died in Afghanistan and Iraq alongside American forces. The United States must not take this sacrifice – nor our allies’ commitment to make it again – lightly.

“Alliance disputes are as old as the alliance itself. Americans are safer when NATO is strong and united. It is in our interest for all allies to tend this unity with care. The United States joined NATO in 1949 when the Senate voted to ratify the NATO treaty, and the United States will remain in it. The Senate will continue to support the alliance for the peace and protection it provides America, Europe, and the World.”

Link
 
Andy_Ross said:
Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell and Democratic Sen. Chris Coons issue joint statement defending NATO after Donald Trump said he’s “strongly considering” withdrawing the U.S. from the alliance:

“The only time NATO has gone to war has been in response to an attack on America. NATO troops fought and died in Afghanistan and Iraq alongside American forces. The United States must not take this sacrifice – nor our allies’ commitment to make it again – lightly.

“Alliance disputes are as old as the alliance itself. Americans are safer when NATO is strong and united. It is in our interest for all allies to tend this unity with care. The United States joined NATO in 1949 when the Senate voted to ratify the NATO treaty, and the United States will remain in it. The Senate will continue to support the alliance for the peace and protection it provides America, Europe, and the World.”

Link
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Very much appreciated.
 
Planigale said:
Although NATO was involved, this was a UN security council mandated action. NATO members chose to act in response to the UN mandate as NATO, they could have acted as individual nations.
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They could have. But they didn't. They acted as NATO.
 
Trump: "You know, China gets 90% of its oil from the Strait of Hormuz. They should be policing their own strait. We're getting ready to get out of there."

Link
 
So how about those non-NATO attacks on Iran? Tankers sailing freely with their cargo? US troops returning home to a joyful welcome? The white house cretins providing reliable and consistent information to their adoring public?
 
Trump: We are going to hit them extremely hard over the next 2 to 3 weeks. We're going to bring them back to the stone ages where they belong.

Link
 
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