What did Democrats do wrong?

[Emily's Cat]

You said the rioters actually "wandered through the Capitol and did no material property damage and caused no actual harm." Like all far right attempts to sanitize history, you are trying to minimize actual far right atrocities.

I stand by that in general. The protesters didn't kill anyone, didn't set anything on fire, damaged very little property. It's an event I think shouldn't have happened, but there are a LOT of events I think shouldn't have happened. I find it frustrating and hypocritical that the people who most vocally should about Jan 6th have zero complaints about property damage, looting, arson, and murders committed by those whose cause they approve of. I'd very much like to see a fair and objective evaluation of the degree of harm done across the board. Because it's the incitement and the propagandistic selectiveness that bothers me more than anything else.

There were no "atrocities", certainly none that need "sanitizing". But don't let that slow you down when you're fiendishly flipping through your thesaurus for the most inflammatory and emotionally enraging language you can find.

yes, no.

When have I objected to calling self-declared nazis "nazis"?
Rather I *do* oppose calling any and every republican a nazi or a fascist or whatever other inciting rhetoric you choose to apply.

In this very thread, when you pretended women run around their bathrooms naked

I've said no such thing, nor have I implied such.

and claimed the only reason trans people are trying to use bathrooms is to see naked women.

I've claimed no such thing.

I've also never opined that people with transgender identities shouldn't be allowed to use bathrooms at all.

There were NO protesters on the side of Unite the Right that were not white supremacists. Trump said there were very fine people on that side. Therefore, yes he ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ well did say that the exclusively white supremacist rally that was organized and attended by exclusively white supremacists had "very fine people" on the white supremacist side.

Lol, are you kidding me? Are you going to confidently opine that every single person who opposed the tearing down of statues was a white supremacist?

Your attempt to pivot to George Floyd or Gaza is a pathetic false equivalence. The 2020 protests were an organic, sustained response to police murdering citizens. Data shows over 93% of those thousands of protests were entirely peaceful, but you bring up the handful that typically had far right agitators arrested for arson or what have you every single time the far right is called out for another act of extremist violence. Your attempt to tar millions of people with the actions of a few is the exact "broad brush" you claim to hate.

See, unlike you I understand that MOST of the protesters were peaceful, but that several were NOT, and that it's inappropriate to treat them all as if they were of the same mind.

Which is something that you do. You did it right here, just above. You do it all the time. If it involves republicans or similar, you gleefully extend that to everyone. So much so that you jump on any and every change to label all of them "extremists" and "fascists" and "nazis". It's abundantly clear that you have a deep hatred of republicans, so deep that you're unable to even conceive that most are not the evil caricatures you paint them as.

Charlottesville and J6, by contrast, were planned, permit holding, or incited events. If you go to a rally advertised with Nazi imagery that was organized by Nazis, march with those Nazis, and stay while they chant Nazi slogans, you're a Nazi. If you break into the Capitol Building and smear feces on the walls while looking to hang Mike Pence because Trump tweeted that Pence followed the law, you're not a tourist. BLM was a national call for accountability, Charlottesville was a planned display of hate, and J6 was a planned and attempted coup. Your "selective grace" is just a refusal to hold the side you clearly support accountable. You aren't "objectively" applying principles, you're just working overtime to provide cover for far right extremists.

Nah. There are plenty of bad people out there, plenty of violent hate-filled zealots. Thing is, I understand that such zealots exist on both sides of the aisle. You don't seem to get that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There is no such thing as a 'fine person' who sees someone carrying a swastika flag and decides "I'm marching with this person". If you see a guy carrying a swastika and willingly join him with nazi chants, you ARE a nazi.

By your logic, there is no such thing as a "fine person" who sees someone carrying a Hamas flag, wearing Hamas headbands and attire, chanting in islamic "from the river to the sea" and then decides to march with them.

Everyone who did such a thing, or was seen in the vicinity of such a thing, is clearly an anti-semitic jihadist, right?

 

[dirtywick]

I stand by that in general. The protesters didn't kill anyone, didn't set anything on fire, damaged very little property. It's an event I think shouldn't have happened, but there are a LOT of events I think shouldn't have happened. I find it frustrating and hypocritical that the people who most vocally should about Jan 6th have zero complaints about property damage, looting, arson, and murders committed by those whose cause they approve of. I'd very much like to see a fair and objective evaluation of the degree of harm done across the board. Because it's the incitement and the propagandistic selectiveness that bothers me more than anything else.

you do understand that jan 6 was a part of a plot to commit election fraud?

 

[arthwollipot]

you do understand that jan 6 was a part of a plot to commit election fraud?

It was, in fact, a failed coup, which only failed because Mike Pence (you know, the guy that the mob was demanding be hanged) grew a conscience.

 

[dirtywick]

It was, in fact, a failed coup, which only failed because Mike Pence (you know, the guy that the mob was demanding be hanged) grew a conscience.

i agree except i think that people like emily’s cat like to point to it as an isolated incident and organic in nature to minimize what was happening. the plot spanned several months, and jan 6 was only one of the parts of it.

so in that sense jan 6 wasn’t a failed coup, it was a part of a bigger failed plot. in fact i’d say the main mechanism for the plot was the fake electors scheme

anyway i just like to point that out so when they bring up blm, which they invariably do, that blm wasn’t part of a plot by the sitting president to retain power in an election he lost

 

[arthwollipot]

Rank-and-File Dems to Leaders: It’s Time to Take the Gloves Off

In TNR’s exclusive new poll, loyal Democratic voters make it plain: They want a party that goes after the people making their lives harder.

newrepublic.com

...in a survey of 2,421 Democratic voters, conducted January 7–16 by Embold Research, The New Republic sought to explore what rank-and-file Democrats want to see from their candidates and elected representatives. Is it true, as one popular strain of criticism goes, that some of the party’s more liberal social ideas are a liability? How important to voters are housing, prescription drug prices, trans rights? How should we approach economic policy, foreign policy? How conciliatory or aggressive should party leaders be toward their foes? What, in other words, do Democrats want from Democrats?

 

[W.D.Clinger]

I don't think you actually know what my claims are.

It would appear you yourself don't actually know what you have claimed, in writing, within this very thread.

You said the rioters actually "wandered through the Capitol and did no material property damage and caused no actual harm." Like all far right attempts to sanitize history, you are trying to minimize actual far right atrocities.

I stand by that in general. The protesters didn't kill anyone, didn't set anything on fire, damaged very little property.

Damage estimates range from $1.5 million to $30 million.

That's very little when you compare it to the estimated $300 million cost of rebuilding the East Wing of the White House, but I doubt whether you would laugh off $1.5 million dollars of damage to your own personal property. On the other hand, I have learned not to be surprised by what you say about such things.

 

[bruto]

Geez, give the poor tourists a break. I mean, sure, in the heat of the moment, you poop on the floor and smear it on the walls - like everyone gets a little caught up in the moment and all - and next thing you know some liberal pussy is getting all up in your grille. And why single out the vandals anyway? What about those Huns and Visigoths?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Absolutely nothing organic or spontaneous about Jan 6th - it was advertised and planned half a year in advance when it became clear that Trump would lose the election.

 

[wareyin]

I stand by that in general. The protesters didn't kill anyone, didn't set anything on fire, damaged very little property. It's an event I think shouldn't have happened, but there are a LOT of events I think shouldn't have happened. I find it frustrating and hypocritical that the people who most vocally should about Jan 6th have zero complaints about property damage, looting, arson, and murders committed by those whose cause they approve of. I'd very much like to see a fair and objective evaluation of the degree of harm done across the board. Because it's the incitement and the propagandistic selectiveness that bothers me more than anything else.

You have no problem with the damage, looting, etc done by members of your tribe during the planned and incited J6 riot. That alone is evidence of your far right views. You won't even admit that it was part of a coup attempt by the sitting President.

There were no "atrocities", certainly none that need "sanitizing". But don't let that slow you down when you're fiendishly flipping through your thesaurus for the most inflammatory and emotionally enraging language you can find.

To the far right, no, a feral crowd doing millions of dollars of damages to federal buildings while they attempted to overthrow the government was not an atrocity. To everyone who isn't trying to whitewash things in order to make the far right look better, that's pants on head crazy talk.

When have I objected to calling self-declared nazis "nazis"?
Rather I *do* oppose calling any and every republican a nazi or a fascist or whatever other inciting rhetoric you choose to apply.

Yes, you oppose accurately labeling the groups that declare that they love Hitler as Nazi's because you won't admit that they are self-declared and you further refuse to apply the definition of fascism to their strategies, actions, and goals. Must defend my tribe at all costs.

I've said no such thing, nor have I implied such.

I've claimed no such thing.

I've also never opined that people with transgender identities shouldn't be allowed to use bathrooms at all.

Yes, you have. "Yes, my "extreme" view that males are not females, and that males shouldn't be given right-by-law to enter spaces where females are naked or vulnerable against consent"

Lol, are you kidding me? Are you going to confidently opine that every single person who opposed the tearing down of statues was a white supremacist?

First, I do notice that your scope has expanded to people no longer at the protest. I'd ask you to move those goalposts back to inside the stadium, except this is still an easily made goal. Yes. Every single person who opposed the removal of statues glorifying men whose ONLY claim to fame was going to war exclusively for the right to own black people as slaves is a white supremacist.

 

[Pixel42]

Yes, you have. "Yes, my "extreme" view that males are not females, and that males shouldn't be given right-by-law to enter spaces where females are naked or vulnerable against consent"

Um, you do realise that leaves plenty of other bathrooms for males to use?

 

[wareyin]

Um, you do realise that leaves plenty of other bathrooms for males to use?

Keep your anti-trans crap to the appropriate cess-pit thread, please.

 

[Segnosaur]

I stand by that in general. The protesters didn't kill anyone...

Yet over 100 people were injured, including dozens of police officers.

Not sure why "murder" is the only thing you are concerned about. There are plenty of people who have long term/permanent injuries as a result of the January 6 terrorist attack.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack

didn't set anything on fire, damaged very little property.

As others have pointed out, the damages to the Capitol building amounted to millions of dollars.

A few other things:
- As others have hinted, much of the damage in the black lives matters protests was caused by right-wing activists trying to discredit the BLM activities.
- Nobody (not even Biden) has made any attempt to pardon the perpetrators or justify the violence surrounding the BLM activities. Compare that to Trump, who has granted blanket pardons to the January 6 terrorists, including those who assaulted police officers
- The BLM protests had validity... there WERE abuses of minorities by law enforcement. (For example, black people are more than twice as likely to be involved a police shooting than white people.) So people are right to demand actions to correct the issue. On the other hand, the January 6 terrorist attack was supposedly related to supposed 2020 election fraud THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter
According to The Washington Post, police officers shot and killed 1,001 people in the United States in 2019...the rate of deaths for black Americans....more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans...

 

[Segnosaur]

There is no such thing as a 'fine person' who sees someone carrying a swastika flag and decides "I'm marching with this person". If you see a guy carrying a swastika and willingly join him with nazi chants, you ARE a nazi.

By your logic, there is no such thing as a "fine person" who sees someone carrying a Hamas flag, wearing Hamas headbands and attire, chanting in islamic "from the river to the sea" and then decides to march with them.

Everyone who did such a thing, or was seen in the vicinity of such a thing, is clearly an anti-semitic jihadist, right?

If a person is marching under the banner of Hamas, and is actually chanting about "destroying israel", then I am willing to say they support terrorism against israel.

(Note: I am able to differentiate people who actually support Hamas and their terrorist actions, and those who are protesting on behalf of the palestinians because they think Israel is being heavy-handed in their dealings with Gaza and the west bank.)

So back to the Trump... do you honestly think someone who sees someone carrying a nazi flag and says "I will protest with them" is not a nazi? Do you honestly think a person doesn't know what the swastika meant? That they somehow joined the charleton protests ironically?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

You have no problem with the damage, looting, etc done by members of your tribe during the planned and incited J6 riot. That alone is evidence of your far right views. You won't even admit that it was part of a coup attempt by the sitting President.

To the far right, no, a feral crowd doing millions of dollars of damages to federal buildings while they attempted to overthrow the government was not an atrocity. To everyone who isn't trying to whitewash things in order to make the far right look better, that's pants on head crazy talk.

Yes, you oppose accurately labeling the groups that declare that they love Hitler as Nazi's because you won't admit that they are self-declared and you further refuse to apply the definition of fascism to their strategies, actions, and goals. Must defend my tribe at all costs.

Yes, you have. "Yes, my "extreme" view that males are not females, and that males shouldn't be given right-by-law to enter spaces where females are naked or vulnerable against consent"

First, I do notice that your scope has expanded to people no longer at the protest. I'd ask you to move those goalposts back to inside the stadium, except this is still an easily made goal. Yes. Every single person who opposed the removal of statues glorifying men whose ONLY claim to fame was going to war exclusively for the right to own black people as slaves is a white supremacist.

You centrists and your purity testing! It's impossible to deal with you and your "principles." Don't you get it that if Democrats ever want to get the votes to change things, they need to embrace the Confederacy, Jan 6th and the anti-trans movement? It's a big tent! Don't you see how your hostility here just drives away people from the party? Shut up, get in line, and vote for someone who promises to toss the trannies in the ovens like we tell you to, if you ever want things to get better.

(Gentle teasing, I assure you)

 

[Donal]

Hey, the Democratic Party is big tent. There's plenty of room for people who hate Democrats.

 

[wareyin]

You centrists and your purity testing! It's impossible to deal with you and your "principles." Don't you get it that if Democrats ever want to get the votes to change things, they need to embrace the Confederacy, Jan 6th and the anti-trans movement? It's a big tent! Don't you see how your hostility here just drives away people from the party? Shut up, get in line, and vote for someone who promises to toss the trannies in the ovens like we tell you to, if you ever want things to get better.

(Gentle teasing, I assure you)

I appreciate the perspective! It’s helpful to be reminded that the real way forward is for us pesky centrists to just get out of the way so the far left and the J6-defending, anti-trans confederates can finish building a stronger MAGA together. I’ll try to be more mindful of your collaborative efforts to help Trump in the future.

(Gently teasing right back).

Hey, the Democratic Party is big tent. There's plenty of room for people who hate Democrats.

You’re not wrong. The party is more than happy to take even the votes of people who spend all their time trashing it, if they can actually get them!

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I appreciate the perspective! It’s helpful to be reminded that the real way forward is for us pesky centrists to just get out of the way so the far left and the J6-defending, anti-trans confederates can finish building a stronger MAGA together. I’ll try to be more mindful of your collaborative efforts to help Trump in the future.

(Gently teasing right back).

You’re not wrong. The party is more than happy to take even the votes of people who spend all their time trashing it, if they can actually get them!

Fair enough, tell you what: you stop ragging on progressives for having standards, and I'll stop actively collaborating with fascists.

 

[wareyin]

Fair enough, tell you what: you stop ragging on progressives for having standards, and I'll stop actively collaborating with fascists.

You'll stop helping MAGA if I stop pointing out that you're helping MAGA? That is a mighty fair offer!

 

[lobosrul5]

Hey, the Democratic Party is big tent. There's plenty of room for people who hate Democrats.

Like a Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly? There's you're best two options to not have Trump part 3 or Vance.