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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Lehtola is clear the fault happened at the installation stage. So this is different from an inspection stage or a ship-in-distress stage.
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But it's bollocks, installation is just taking them out of the box they are supplied in and putting them in the container.

I have owned and installed them, I know how it works .
When my brother and I got out last yacht about 5 years ago we got a brand new buoy for it.
We took it out of the box and put it in the container.
Once a year I pressed the battery test button as required by the manual.

Our particular model like all the modern units has a separate battery test button so there's no chance of accidental activation.
 
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Vixen, I'm reposting my request for you to quote the text from section 3.3.2 of the JAIC report, which says that the Atlantic lock was only added to make people feel safer. I've read through it several times and can't find the bit that says it was only added to make people feel safer.

The part that of section 3.3.2 that describes the Atlantic lock is only about 400 words, it'll only take you a minute to find the bit that I can't find, and copy and paste it here.

That's all I'm asking for, for you to simply open the JAIC report, go to section 3.3.2, find where it says the Atlantic lock was only added to make people feel safer, highlight the relevant text, and copy and paste it here. There's no excuse for you not to do so, it should only take someone with your superior intellect and research skills less than a minute,
 
Andy_Ross said:
Fill in rhe form with your boat name and details when you buy it and return to the agents.

Well, that's all I had to do.
I think there's an online option as well now.
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Sure, you register the device with a terrestrial agency. No satellite is involved. It's not as if the COSPAS-SARSAT spacecraft themselves maintain a registry onboard with all the emergency locator devices in use worldwide, and as if they refuse contact from unknown devices. Vixen is trying to tell us the buoys don't transmit until they're properly "registered with the satellite," which is ridiculous on its face. As of about 2011 some EPIRBs could receive a "call back" from the Galileo satellite network that confirms signal received and help on the way. To my knowledge no such service was available in 1994.
 
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Vixen said:
I assume this is addressed to me. As I said I am in perfectly good health. This is factual. This is as medically, objectively and scientifically verified and certified by Terveystalo and as approved by Traficom, driving licence people. If it is not addressed to me, can I say I am not comfortable with the idea of disability being used in this context. People with Alzheimer's, memory issues, comprehension or reading difficulties or mental or affective illnesses are just as much entitled to be treated with respect and dignity as anybody else. Please let's not use disability as a tool for 'friendly advice' no matter how well-meaning, or even worse, as jibe fodder.
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In general, I agree. No one's memory is perfect and memory impairments from all causes are no joke. That's exactly why I find using "My my, I just don't remember anyone saying that tee hee" as a form of argumentation, as an excuse for reviving claims that have already been disproven or as an excuse for broaching previous agreements and denying posting things one has posted, as utterly reprehensible. Would you agree that people who tell lies like "no, I don't remember promising to pay that back, do you have it in writing?" are nasty and best avoided? Would you agree that falsely pretending to be mobility impaired to use handicapped parking spaces is highly disrespectful to people with actual limited mobility? Would you agree that feigning poverty to get free food you could easily afford yourself from a food kitchen is highly disrespectful to people who are actually food insecure due to poverty?

If you're fortunate enough to have scientifically verified unimpaired memory, then pretending you don't remember previously established and agreed-to facts and findings, for the purpose of drawing out arguments with arbitrary resets and evasion and trolling, is all the more scummy.
 
Myriad said:
If you're fortunate enough to have scientifically verified unimpaired memory, then pretending you don't remember previously established and agreed-to facts and findings, for the purpose of drawing out arguments with arbitrary resets and evasion and trolling, is all the more scummy.
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On the other hand, having genuinely impaired memory despite believing oneself to have perfect memory is an unfortunate situation I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

It would, however, present a formidable obstacle to conducting any kind of research.
 
Vixen said:
For heavens sake, EPIRB's on a ship are switched off when resting in dry dock
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Cite? There is absolutely no reason to turn off an EPIRB, automatic or manual, while at a dock. Wet or dry.

My EPIRB, is sitting in an emergency grab bag in my office with my VHF handheld, flares and V-sheet.
I put them on board whenever I launch my boat.

No need to remember to arm my EPIRB as it is always armed.
Just not activated,


Vixen said:
(say for a two-week period), so yes, they CAN be turned off. Yes, all the Hammar spring does is release the buoy from its bracket. Everybody is clear about that.
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Yes, and if it is a manual EPIRB like the ones on MS Estonia, they need to be manually activated when removed from their cradle. Just as mine is.

Alternatively, the EPIRBS on the coastguard boats I worked on were automatic models and remained in place outside the bridge(s). During a dry dock of 3 weeks for hull cleaning and prop shaft replacement/maintenance, both EPIRBs remained installed in their brackets. As did the automatically deployed life rafts on both boats.

Face it, you have absolutely no experience with installing, deploying or maintaining these devices beyond mad CT flailings by you illinformed sources.

How often must your misapprehensions about using these devises be corrected, by people on this thread who actually own and operate these devices, before you realise that your entire understanding of EPIRB operation is incorrect?
 
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EHocking said:
Cite? There is absolutely no reason to turn off an EPIRB, automatic or manual, while at a dock. Wet or dry.

My EPIRB, is sitting in an emergency grab bag in my office with my VHF handheld, flares and V-sheet.
I put them on board whenever I launch my boat.

No need to remember to arm my EPIRB as it is always armed.
Just not activated,



Yes, and if it is a manual EPIRB like the ones on MS Estonia, they need to be manually activated when removed from their cradle. Just as mine is.
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The one I sold in the summer along with the Moody was an automatic activation, the first one we have had.
When we weren't on the boat it was kept at home with the other 'desirable' electronic devices and items in a plastic crate.

As you say, nothing to turn off when storing it, nothing to turn on when re-shipping.
 
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I was going to write a funny bit based around misunderstanding/misinterpreting language and /or terminology, but I forgot what it was*.

No matter, Vixen will return (eventually/inevitably) and despite my utter lack of knowledge regarding boats or ships (please don't try to explain the difference to me, I don't care) or physics, there is no way way I can compete.

Congratulations, @Vixen, you have out-acting-dumbed me. Consider my cap doffed.


*I sometimes wonder if I should interact with the forum before drinking, but then I read the forum, and need a drink. Also, it wouldn't be fair on Otto.
Edited to remove a random asterisk.
 
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junkshop said:
I was going to write a funny* bit based around misunderstanding/misinterpreting language and /or terminology, but I forgot what it was*.

No matter, Vixen will return (eventually/inevitably) and despite my utter lack of knowledge regarding boats or ships (please don't try to explain the difference to me, I don't care) or physics, there is no way way I can compete.

Congratulations, @Vixen, you have out-acting-dumbed me. Consider my cap doffed.


*I sometimes wonder if I should interact with the forum before drinking, but then I read the forum, and need a drink. Also, it wouldn't be fair on Otto.
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It's that amazing 999 intellect at work, its so advanced it just SEEMS like abject stupidity to the rest of us lol
 
Dabop said:
It's that amazing 999 intellect at work, its so advanced it just SEEMS like abject stupidity to the rest of us lol
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I can say no more. My cap is doffed. I am confident that no-one will vomit a ◊◊◊◊-ton of previously debunked conspiratorial ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ all over this thread. That won't happen. We are all going to wait for the final, final, no really this it it, it's the last one, we're not going over this again, this is it, realsies, report.
And that will be an end to it all.

There will be nothing more to say.

Over.

Gone.

Done.

😂

Edited several times because the software really doesn't like the word 'realsies', which I can respect. It is an awful word.
 
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Andy_Ross said:
The one I sold in the summer along with the Moody was an automatic activation, the first one we have had.
When we weren't on the boat it was kept at home with the other 'desirable' electronic devices and items in a plastic crate.

As you say, nothing to turn off when storing it, nothing to turn on when re-shipping.
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Good thing there wasn't a flood at your home at any of those times.

Because that could have done a lot of damage to your property and also been dangerous.

But also, I can imagine the Coast Guard trying to respond to "The motor vessel Moody is sinking at... 2336 Shadyridge Ave, Escondido..."

(Random US address used; not actual address unless an incredible coincidence has occurred.)
 
Mojo said:
As I said, Vixen introduced the release mechanism in order to confuse it with the EPIRBs.
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Not at all, the hydrostatic release mechanism indicates the EPIRB's WERE compliant with SOLAS in being automatic ones, when this was disputed, I proved it was an automatic hydrostatic release EPIRB by showing the photo of the Rockwater diver with the Hammar spring device in his hand. I had thought the EPIRB itself was still int he bracket but it is clear both of the two EPIRBs released as intended but failed to transmit the distress signals on rising to the surface.
 
Vixen said:
Not at all, the hydrostatic release mechanism indicates the EPIRB's WERE compliant with SOLAS in being automatic ones, when this was disputed, I proved it was an automatic hydrostatic release EPIRB by showing the photo of the Rockwater diver with the Hammar spring device in his hand. I had thought the EPIRB itself was still int he bracket but it is clear both of the two EPIRBs released as intended but failed to transmit the distress signals on rising to the surface.
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Still there are two different actions needed:
* Release
* Activation

Here is a 2 minut clip about hydrostatic release units - in this case for Liferafts. Here it is very easy to see the two separate actions. First the hydrostatic release happens. At a later stage the Activation happens, using a different mechanism.

Can you confirm that you see and understand the two different actions? Do you understand what would happen with the life raft if the (red) painter line was not connected?
 
Vixen said:
Not at all, the hydrostatic release mechanism indicates the EPIRB's WERE compliant with SOLAS in being automatic ones, when this was disputed, I proved it was an automatic hydrostatic release EPIRB by showing the photo of the Rockwater diver with the Hammar spring device in his hand. I had thought the EPIRB itself was still int he bracket but it is clear both of the two EPIRBs released as intended but failed to transmit the distress signals on rising to the surface.
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Ah, that's because this model of EPIRB (Kannad 406F) required a manual activation by one of the crew.

(The Hammar hydrostatic release device is entirely separate from the EPIRB itself, and is entirely separate from any auto-activation mechanism that the EPIRB might or might not possess - and as I say, this model of EPIRB did not possess an auto-activation mechanism*).


* The maritime regulatory environment, as of September 1994, only mandated an auto-activation mechanism for the EPIRBs themselves when the EPIRBs had exceeded their operating lifetime and needed to be replaced - ie only the new, replacement EPIRBs needed to be auto-activated, The EPIRBs on the Estonia were not auto-activated but were still within their operational lifespan, and thus they were compliant with regulation (had the Estonia not sunk that night, the EPIRBs would have reached their operational lifespan within a couple of years and wiould have had to be replaced with auto-activation models.)
 
Here_to_learn said:
Still there are two different actions needed:
* Release
* Activation

Here is a 2 minut clip about hydrostatic release units - in this case for Liferafts. Here it is very easy to see the two separate actions. First the hydrostatic release happens. At a later stage the Activation happens, using a different mechanism.

Can you confirm that you see and understand the two different actions? Do you understand what would happen with the life raft if the (red) painter line was not connected?
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Yes. And also to reiterate: the auto-release equipment was/is totally separate hardware from the actual EPIRB. Any EPIRB auto-activation mechanism must be built in to the EPIRB itself.
 
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