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Merged why the release of names associated with Epstein mean little to absolutely nothing.

Venom said:
Honestly that just looked like an inside joke. It's easy in retrospect to see that in a different light.
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Just as when people tried to pass off Trump bragging about sexual assault or barging in on underage beauty pageant changing rooms as "locker room talk", I have to point out that none of my circles talks like that or makes "inside jokes" about that stuff. If you and yours do, that's...well, that's not a good look.
 
it's also in the context that venom was trying to say that the rich and powerful probably didn't dig into his personal life too much and they had a friendship that was in some other context and they probably didn't use the internet that much. well, it was a giant inside joke for his large friend and acquaintance circle where a bunch of people drew drawings and made jokes about it. so, yeah, can't be both a secret and an inside joke.
 
Venom said:
Again, there is no evidence he had clients (who bought sexual services from him). He was the consumer. To the extent that Epstein was a "sex trafficker", he trafficked those young women to himself utilizing his employees and local recruits. The 44 or so women at Palm Beach interviewed by the police and FBI didn't say anything about clients. Epstein was the client.
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When Epstein's co-conspirator in this sex ring was convicted for "her role in a scheme to sexual exploit and abuse multiple minor girls with Jeffrey Epstein over the course of a decade", did that ever make you think that maybe Epstein was not just a client here?
Venom said:
Attorney Bradley Edwards has represented more than 200 of Epstein's accusers. He said this to ABC in July.
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Merged Post in thread 'why the release of names associated with Epstein mean little to absolutely nothing.'

dirtywick said:
i would add that
i think there was a sex ring. was it vast, not so sure, define vast i guess. who cares.
did it involve more than epstein and maxwell? yeah.
were those people famous or powerful? seems like it.
was he recording them and blackmailing them? possibly, explains a lot about what happened. was he murdered? doesn't seem like it to me.

now, the questions i have that spring to mind are,
why do a lot of familiar names keep popping up over and over if they have no involvement? why are they moving heaven and earth to cover this up and...
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Worth noting Edwards has toned down his claims about Epstein considerably over the decade. His standard line now is Epstein "farmed out" a few legal women to his close associates, like he claimed in the September press conference. But even that is suspect considering the cases he's alluding to.
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Oh, it was "only a few" women that Epstein was trafficking, so that makes it ok?
Venom said:
What blame should the "rich and powerful" get, exactly?
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The blame that the rich and powerful men should get ... for participating in the sex ring? Do you really need to ask this question?
Venom said:
And I didn't say girls "forced sex" on Epstein. I brought them up because I think it's important to acknowledge what occurred, whatever the circumstances. Epstein and his people provided an incentive for young women to go to his mansion. Now if you have ethical objections to that, okay; I have my misgivings about decriminalizing sex work since this scenario is apparently quite common. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about the age of consent or what's legally permissible in a particular place. Epstein's case was resolved through legally appropriate means. That never stopped people from trying to get him long after he had served his time and registered as a sex offender.
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Oh, it's clear that you don't want to discuss the age of consent or what is legally permissible, as both are fatal to your insistence that Epstein was the guy who needs his name cleared here.
 
dirtywick said:
oh, they were making a joke of it. but to me it looks to me like he didn’t compartmentalize his life as much as you’re assuming.
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The point is this: who were the authors of those two birthday cards that supposedly demonstrate everyone knew about his crimes?

It wasn't any of the "rich and powerful" I assume wareyin is thinking of. His friends knew he liked massages from young women (20-somethings as a 45-50 year old).

wareyin said:
Just as when people tried to pass off Trump bragging about sexual assault or barging in on underage beauty pageant changing rooms as "locker room talk", I have to point out that none of my circles talks like that or makes "inside jokes" about that stuff. If you and yours do, that's...well, that's not a good look.
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When I was in high school, not that long ago compared to most here, juniors and seniors would jokingly call classmates who talked to freshmen pedophiles. It's stupid, but some people just like over-the-top raunchy jokes and the Epstein birthday book was full of them. He was a middle-aged guy who preferred massages from late teens and 20-somethings.
 
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wareyin said:
When Epstein's co-conspirator in this sex ring was convicted for "her role in a scheme to sexual exploit and abuse multiple minor girls with Jeffrey Epstein over the course of a decade", did that ever make you think that maybe Epstein was not just a client here?
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You're getting close. Let's circle back.
They did renege on that non-prosecution agreement in order to get Ghislaine Maxwell. There were serious issues with that trial. But the point is if they want Epstein's co-conspirators, the logical thing to do knowing what actually happened with underage girls at Palm Beach is to investigate these obscure assistants and boyfriends and housekeepers.
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I'm not even saying Virginia Roberts and Haley Robson, etc. these 17-19 year old recruiters, or his personal assistants, or housekeepers or boyfriends should have been prosecuted, but if we're trying to revive the criminal case, there's your suspects. In fact there's more evidence against them than there is against Maxwell since dozens of young women actually identified them as participants.

wareyin said:
Oh, it was "only a few" women that Epstein was trafficking, so that makes it ok?
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The public is constantly fed misinformation that it was hundred or even thousands of women. And I dispute even those few Edwards claims are legitimate.

wareyin said:
The blame that the rich and powerful men should get ... for participating in the sex ring? Do you really need to ask this question?
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Participated how wareyin?? How did the rich and powerful participate in the "sex ring"? (See first reply above)

wareyin said:
Oh, it's clear that you don't want to discuss the age of consent or what is legally permissible, as both are fatal to your insistence that Epstein was the guy who needs his name cleared here.
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:rolleyes: It's not fatal to my point at all. I'm not looking to clear Epstein's name. Again just because some things said about him might be true doesn't mean everything said about him should be accepted. Is that a controversial position now? Especially when you look at the timeline of this story and see when the most lurid tales about Epstein came out, the lack of evidence for a lot of them, and the perverse incentives created by various victim compensation funds.
 
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Participating by seeing Epstein host parties with underage girls proving massages etc. and not saying anything publicly or to law enforcement. Every person who visited an Epstein event featuring girls is an accomplice to sex trafficking and rape.

It's already a conspiracy if you see a crime and keep it quiet.
 
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Venom said:
The point is this: who were the authors of those two birthday cards that supposedly demonstrate everyone knew about his crimes?

It wasn't any of the "rich and powerful" I assume wareyin is thinking of. His friends knew he liked massages from young women (20-somethings as a 45-50 year old).
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i'm not aware that he had any friends that weren't rich and powerful?

Venom said:
When I was in high school, not that long ago compared to most here, juniors and seniors would jokingly call classmates who talked to freshmen pedophiles. It's stupid, but some people just like over-the-top raunchy jokes and the Epstein birthday book was full of them. He was a middle-aged guy who preferred massages from late teens and 20-somethings.
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that sounds absurd to me, sorry
 
dirtywick said:
that sounds absurd to me, sorry
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I don't blame you

The Great Zaganza said:
Participating by seeing Epstein host parties with underage girls proving massages etc. and not saying anything publicly or to law enforcement. Every person who visited an Epstein event featuring girls is an accomplice to sex trafficking and rape.

It's already a conspiracy if you see a crime and keep it quiet.
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Who saw Epstein hosting parties with underage girls? No, not every person who visited an Epstein event featuring "girls" is an accomplice to sex trafficking and rape; why should they go to authorities? Epstein had young women in the "background" sometimes, or at most giving massages or providing refreshments in the presence of some prominent people, but these were actual masseuses and personal assistants.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Just like the argument is that people wouldn't take bribes if they were properly paid, men who can't keep their fingers to themselves are just not getting laid enough by underage bombshell blondes - turns out, as always, it's the women's fault
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Exact justification for burkhas
 
Venom said:
You're getting close. Let's circle back.

I'm not even saying Virginia Roberts and Haley Robson, etc. these 17-19 year old recruiters, or his personal assistants, or housekeepers or boyfriends should have been prosecuted, but if we're trying to revive the criminal case, there's your suspects. In fact there's more evidence against them than there is against Maxwell since dozens of young women actually identified them as participants.
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So...let's not prosecute the head honchos or people who actually orchestrated and benefitted from the sex trafficking, let's go after 17 year olds, and their boyfriends? Are we back to excusing Epstein because those women who were not legally able to consent really wanted it again? Dude, you have a VERY misplaced sense of who to blame here.
Venom said:
The public is constantly fed misinformation that it was hundred or even thousands of women. And I dispute even those few Edwards claims are legitimate.
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Oh, of course you do...except in a couple of paragraphs you also claim that you aren't looking to clear Epstein's name. So...apparently you aren't trying to clear his name you're just trying to say there was no crime, and no victims. Right...
Venom said:
Participated how wareyin?? How did the rich and powerful participate in the "sex ring"? (See first reply above)
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Jesus wept, Epstein's best friend at the time (you know, the guy who bragged about barging into underage dressing rooms because he owned the event) openly told people Epstein also like young girls. Your insistence that Epstein's friends had no idea he was a pedo despite them saying so both openly and in his birthday book is frankly bizarre.
Venom said:
:rolleyes: It's not fatal to my point at all. I'm not looking to clear Epstein's name. Again just because some things said about him might be true doesn't mean everything said about him should be accepted. Is that a controversial position now? Especially when you look at the timeline of this story and see when the most lurid tales about Epstein came out, the lack of evidence for a lot of them, and the perverse incentives created by various victim compensation funds.
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We have evidence. We have convictions. Yet for some reason you are bending over backwards to give far too charitable readings of statements made by the rich (oh, it was just a joke) while attributing sinister motives and assigning blame to the victims. In your zeal to compare this to 9/11 conspiracy theories, you don't seem to realize that you're the troother here.
 
Oh brother you are flailing.
wareyin said:
So...let's not prosecute the head honchos or people who actually orchestrated and benefitted from the sex trafficking, let's go after 17 year olds, and their boyfriends? Are we back to excusing Epstein because those women who were not legally able to consent really wanted it again? Dude, you have a VERY misplaced sense of who to blame here.
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Read the line you are quoting here. "I'm not even saying [they] should have been prosecuted, but if we are reviving the criminal case, there's your suspects". I'm not the one trying to revive the case; the case is closed. Epstein's dead, Maxwell is in prison, the rest of his alleged co-conspirators are immune from prosecution. Some went into hiding, some capitalized off of their dual status as perpetrator and victim, some are simply living freely. Hardly any people who pretend to care about this case know their names. It's just anti-elite conspiracy mongering.

wareyin said:
Oh, of course you do...except in a couple of paragraphs you also claim that you aren't looking to clear Epstein's name. So...apparently you aren't trying to clear his name you're just trying to say there was no crime, and no victims. Right...
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By your logic saying Dick Cheney didn't have foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks is also "clearing his name". He did absolutely nothing wrong because he didn't do that. You see how stupid this sounds?

There are good reasons to dispute Edwards' claim, since the cases he has in mind are weak as ◊◊◊◊, all of them without exception came long after Virginia Roberts, and while he was the lawyer for some of them he didn't produce any positive evidence for their claims in civil litigation. The only thing he and other plaintiffs lawyers ever proved or convincingly argued is that Jeffrey Epstein victimized their clients, not that he sold any of them to other people.

wareyin said:
Jesus wept, Epstein's best friend at the time (you know, the guy who bragged about barging into underage dressing rooms because he owned the event) openly told people Epstein also like young girls. Your insistence that Epstein's friends had no idea he was a pedo despite them saying so both openly and in his birthday book is frankly bizarre.
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He said he liked women on the younger side, not that they were underage or children.

wareyin said:
We have evidence. We have convictions. Yet for some reason you are bending over backwards to give far too charitable readings of statements made by the rich (oh, it was just a joke) while attributing sinister motives and assigning blame to the victims. In your zeal to compare this to 9/11 conspiracy theories, you don't seem to realize that you're the troother here.
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Yes we have evidence. I don't think it proves what you think it proves. I've told you the problems with Maxwell's conviction. It might seem to you that I'm "bending over backwards" when skeptics have to push back against a mountain of misinformation on basic stuff really. And of course everyone gets to uncritically promote Virginia's claims, her memoirs, Maria Farmer gets to be a Nazi and taken seriously by CNN, people in 2025 still say Bill Clinton went to Epstein's island when documents disproving that have long been unredacted, not that the island was anything special, Sarah Ransome somehow still gets airtime after her fake sex tape claims. Apparently none of this gives skeptics second thoughts about the common narrative in this story.
 
Venom said:
Oh brother you are flailing.

Read the line you are quoting here. "I'm not even saying [they] should have been prosecuted, but if we are reviving the criminal case, there's your suspects". I'm not the one trying to revive the case; the case is closed. Epstein's dead, Maxwell is in prison, the rest of his alleged co-conspirators are immune from prosecution. Some went into hiding, some capitalized off of their dual status as perpetrator and victim, some are simply living freely. Hardly any people who pretend to care about this case know their names. It's just anti-elite conspiracy mongering.
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'I'm not saying they should be prosecuted, but they're the people we should focus on' is certainly flailing. Trying to go after the 17 year old victims and their boyfriends and some housecleaner just to protect the elite is next level flailing.
Venom said:
By your logic saying Dick Cheney didn't have foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks is also "clearing his name". He did absolutely nothing wrong because he didn't do that. You see how stupid this sounds?

There are good reasons to dispute Edwards' claim, since the cases he has in mind are weak as ◊◊◊◊, all of them without exception came long after Virginia Roberts, and while he was the lawyer for some of them he didn't produce any positive evidence for their claims in civil litigation. The only thing he and other plaintiffs lawyers ever proved or convincingly argued is that Jeffrey Epstein victimized their clients, not that he sold any of them to other people.
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It sounds stupid because it has absolutely no relationship with what you or I are saying. You've already admitted that you believe Epstein knew his underage victims were underage, so you don't actually even seem to have a point here.
Venom said:
He said he liked women on the younger side, not that they were underage or children.
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The guy who said it also bragged about barging in on Ms. TEEN USA pageants, and that Epstein liked them young like Trump did. Just stop here, you're embarrassing yourself.
Venom said:
Yes we have evidence. I don't think it proves what you think it proves. I've told you the problems with Maxwell's conviction. It might seem to you that I'm "bending over backwards" when skeptics have to push back against a mountain of misinformation on basic stuff really. And of course everyone gets to uncritically promote Virginia's claims, her memoirs, Maria Farmer gets to be a Nazi and taken seriously by CNN, people in 2025 still say Bill Clinton went to Epstein's island when documents disproving that have long been unredacted, not that the island was anything special, Sarah Ransome somehow still gets airtime after her fake sex tape claims. Apparently none of this gives skeptics second thoughts about the common narrative in this story.
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Yes, I know that you think there were problems with the trials, the convictions, hell with the very idea of holding the elite accountable for their own actions. I know you think our efforts to assign blame should be on the Palm Beach high school children that Epstein and Maxwell victimized (and apparently the housecleaner?), and we should leave poor Epstein and Maxwell alone. I'm just not buying it. Your defense of Epstein by attacking his victims has been gross, creepy, and you admittedly ignore what is "legally permissible" in your efforts to shift blame.
 
Venom said:
Read the line you are quoting here. "I'm not even saying [they] should have been prosecuted, but if we are reviving the criminal case, there's your suspects". I'm not the one trying to revive the case; the case is closed. Epstein's dead, Maxwell is in prison, the rest of his alleged co-conspirators are immune from prosecution. Some went into hiding, some capitalized off of their dual status as perpetrator and victim, some are simply living freely. Hardly any people who pretend to care about this case know their names. It's just anti-elite conspiracy mongering.
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I want to revisit this. In 2005, among the things seized from Epstein's mansion were handwritten message logs from young girls arranging and cancelling "massages". In some of these logs, clear references to them still being in high school were made, such as “She is wondering if 2:30 is ok as she needs to stay in school.” and “Julie – she would like to speak to you. I believe about college.” Epstein knew these girls were in high school. Epstein paid these children, often from financially struggling homes, $200 to bring in new recruits. In your words, that made these children perpetrators, but most people won't see it that way.
Further, Epstein bragged to people he had just met about getting "the right kind of massage" daily from these high school girls. Your insistence that nobody knew what was going on is belied by people like Howard Lutnick, and those who signed his birthday book.
 
wareyin said:
'I'm not saying they should be prosecuted, but they're the people we should focus on' is certainly flailing. Trying to go after the 17 year old victims and their boyfriends and some housecleaner just to protect the elite is next level flailing.
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Again, YOU are the one looking to further prosecute people wareyin, not me. My position is the case is closed, there's no evidence we need to go after anyone else. But if you do believe we need further prosecutions, the logical thing to do would be go after those people. I say logical, not reasonable. It's understandable why prosecutors don't bring charges.

wareyin said:
It sounds stupid because it has absolutely no relationship with what you or I are saying. You've already admitted that you believe Epstein knew his underage victims were underage, so you don't actually even seem to have a point here.
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I'm making an ANALOGY. Is this so difficult for you to comprehend? The issue isn't about whether Epstein knew their ages, it's the widespread conspiracy theories about his island and him being a pimp for the elite.

wareyin said:
The guy who said it also bragged about barging in on Ms. TEEN USA pageants, and that Epstein liked them young like Trump did. Just stop here, you're embarrassing yourself.
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I'm referring to what you said Trump said about Epstein.

wareyin said:
Yes, I know that you think there were problems with the trials, the convictions, hell with the very idea of holding the elite accountable for their own actions. I know you think our efforts to assign blame should be on the Palm Beach high school children that Epstein and Maxwell victimized (and apparently the housecleaner?), and we should leave poor Epstein and Maxwell alone. I'm just not buying it. Your defense of Epstein by attacking his victims has been gross, creepy, and you admittedly ignore what is "legally permissible" in your efforts to shift blame.
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I'm not assigning blame to Palm Beach victims. Like I said they largely aren't even known and don't do interviews. I'm highly skeptical of these women who've come out of the woodwork post-2020, many of whom were in their 20s when they met Epstein, said previously that they loved him, begged his receptionists to go back to Epstein's, got huge cuts of the big-money settlements after his death, and are collected like trading cards by shifty plaintiffs lawyers. Some of these women have given "testimony" against Ghislaine Maxwell when they were never even adjudicated as victims and weren't called as witnesses at her trial.

wareyin said:
I want to revisit this. In 2005, among the things seized from Epstein's mansion were handwritten message logs from young girls arranging and cancelling "massages". In some of these logs, clear references to them still being in high school were made, such as “She is wondering if 2:30 is ok as she needs to stay in school.” and “Julie – she would like to speak to you. I believe about college.” Epstein knew these girls were in high school. Epstein paid these children, often from financially struggling homes, $200 to bring in new recruits. In your words, that made these children perpetrators, but most people won't see it that way.
Further, Epstein bragged to people he had just met about getting "the right kind of massage" daily from these high school girls. Your insistence that nobody knew what was going on is belied by people like Howard Lutnick, and those who signed his birthday book.
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Yes.....this is known information. Are you even following anything I'm saying? I said a page ago that Epstein wasn't duped into getting massages from underage girls, my only point with the fake IDs and lying was that he created a financial incentive for local women to visit him, some of who were underage, recruited by Roberts, Robson, Andriano, Hall, etc. and processed by the front desk; Sarah Kellen, Lesley Groff, etc. If you read the records at the State Attorney at Palm Beach you can find much more, plus the 2020 OPR report on the case. None of this is new.
 
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