The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Steve]

No, just every account from ALL THE SURVIVORS. But other than that.

But Vixen only believes survivor accounts if they support her fantasy. All others have been coerced into lying by the conspirators.

 

[Mojo]

A sinking with clear military precision:

• communications down from 12:59 to 01:54
• ship just reached international waters
• Swedish midnight
• Survivors feeling or hearing bangs and shudders
• violent listing that failed to right it self after a couple of attempts
• Third Captain having to use a hand held device to call MAYDAY (where was the Captain?), thanks to communications being down
• EPIRBS failed to initiate
• Swedish coastguards got their first information from a truck driver
• Tammes' last MAYDAY 01:22 EET
• Sillaste, Linde and True on a life raft - fully kitted out - before then
• Sillaste and the two Estonian athletes confirm the bow ramp was closed
• Treu and Sillaste confirm they were 'up to their knees in water' in the Engine Room deck 0.
• Linde was seen skiving in the Empire Bar yet claimed he saw Capt Andresson going to the bridge.
• From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.
• Communications resumed circa 12:54 Swedish end, when Helsinki Radio came through..
• M/V Mariela and M/V Europa arrived at the scene to find nothing there.
• The senior Estonian crew including Captain Piht mysteriously vanished.
• US firm Rockwater went searching Piht's room for...a briefcase belonging to an Estonian/Russian arms dealer.

A whole lot of stuff that's already been rebutted, presented as if the previous discussion never happened. There's a term for that, even if Vixen doesn't consider it sufficiently witty.

 

[Mojo]

Wait. It is not me that called for the reinvestigation. I am Team Estonia.

JAQing off about a lot of ludicrous conspiracy theories is not being "Team Estonia"; you are just exploiting the disaster for amusement and self-aggrandisement.

 

[Axxman300]

A sinking with clear military precision:

Nope, not by any definition of this silly phrase.

communications down from 12:59 to 01:54

Nope. Debunked over two dozen times in these threads.

ship just reached international waters

And?

 

[zooterkin]

Would Estonia have sunk without that hole in its side?
Most definitely not. The hole fits the bill. It answers all previously unanswered questions. It explains how water made its way below the car deck, why the ferry didn’t tip over as quickly as all others have. It does away with conflicting evidence. We no longer need to twist the words of the three sailors who were in the engine room when the disaster happened. They have said that the visor was closed and the ferry alist. We can now believe that it was indeed shut and that water came in through the hole and created the tilt.

<snip>
From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.

Could you make up your mind whether the ferry sank abnormally slowly or abnormally quickly?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Schrödinger's Ferry

 

[Axxman300]

Swedish midnight

You really need to stop saying this. This is paranoid delusion on full display.

Survivors feeling or hearing bangs and shudders

And we know this was the bow visor banging against the ship in the PITCHING SEAS you claim didn't exist.

violent listing that failed to right it self after a couple of attempts

Gosh, wonder caused that? I'm going with all the sea water flooding into the car deck. I'm no expert but I think this was bad.

Third Captain having to use a hand held device to call MAYDAY (where was the Captain?), thanks to communications being down

Also explained multiple times. See, when a ship is sinking, equipment fails, hence the sinking part.

EPIRBS failed to initiate

This stupidity again. Those had to be activated manually back in those days, which was explained - in detail - over at least 12 pages in one thread. You are really bad at this.

Swedish coastguards got their first information from a truck driver

And?

Tammes' last MAYDAY 01:22 EET

Do you know what 90 degree angle is?

Sillaste, Linde and True on a life raft - fully kitted out - before then

You mean as if they were paying attention to the ship's conditions, and had their doo-doo together?

Sillaste and the two Estonian athletes confirm the bow ramp was closed

No, just that at the time the climbed down.

Treu and Sillaste confirm they were 'up to their knees in water' in the Engine Room deck 0.

Yes, with the visor gone, car ramp open, the ship barreling into the waves one would expect water the fill the ship...which it did...causing it to sink...

Linde was seen skiving in the Empire Bar yet claimed he saw Capt Andresson going to the bridge.

And?

From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.

Yes, the car ramp being open allowed tons of water to flood the ship. Not sure if you've figured this out, but the bigger the hole the more water gets in, and the ship floods faster.

Communications resumed circa 12:54 Swedish end, when Helsinki Radio came through..

And?

M/V Mariela and M/V Europa arrived at the scene to find nothing there.

Not sure how this is suspicious at all. The Estonia WAS there. She was just UNDER WATER. Duh.

The senior Estonian crew including Captain Piht mysteriously vanished.

No, they're still in the ship. Get a wetsuit, and some air tanks. Rent a German flagged boat, and pay them a visit any time you wish.

US firm Rockwater went searching Piht's room for...a briefcase belonging to an Estonian/Russian arms dealer.

Nobody cares.

Honestly, none of this is suspicious. The amount of mental failure to mold these things, many at this point being debunked lies, into evidence of a crime is staggering. And most of what is really depicted here is a pretty bad storm, and a ship not built for it.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Any commander that came up with that load of bollocks as a plan would probably be demoted to Ward Room pot washer.

To further the ongoing intellectual debate, let's try to take that plan seriously.

A sinking with clear military precision:

Okay, guys, listen up and synchronize your watches. Here's what we're gonna do:

• At precisely 12:59, we're gonna take down all communications. At precisely 01:54, we're gonna restore those communications.
• We're gonna get the ship's officers to time its progress so the ship is just entering international waters when we take down the communications.
• We're gonna force the Swedes to say 01:00 in the local time zone corresponds to Swedish midnight.
• We're gonna bang on the ship so any survivors will remember hearing those bangs.
• We're gonna get the ship to list so violently that it can try to right itself a couple of times before we proceed to the next part of our plan.
• We're gonna make sure the Third Captain has a hand held device he can use to call MAYDAY after we've brought down all of the communications that would normally be used to call MAYDAY.
• We're gonna ask the Third Captain not to tell anyone what the Captain is doing.
• We're gonna spread a false rumor that the EPIRBs failed to initiate.
• We're gonna get a truck driver to tell the Swedish coastguards that something went wrong.
• At precisely 1:22, 23 minutes after we took down all communications and 32 minutes before we bring those communications back up, we're gonna get the MS Estonia's third mate to confirm that the ship had sent a distress signal.
• To reward the third mate for his service, we're gonna make sure he dies in the accident.
• We're gonna make sure at least some of the life rafts are fully kitted out; to accomplish that, we may have to bribe someone to make sure the life rafts are in their proper condition before the ship sails.
• We're gonna make sure Sillaste, Linde, and Treu are on a life raft before 1:22.
• We're gonna make sure Linde tells investigators he was on the life raft at 1:24.
• We're gonna get Linde to say the bow ramp was closed because all the indicator lamps were green.
• When experts point out that the harbour securing indicator lamp would have been red, because the ship was no longer in the harbour, we're gonna have the professor on our payroll say a careful boatswain always closed the harbour securing mechanism once the ship got out to sea, just so none of the indicator lamps would be red.
• When video proves the harbor securing lamp was red, we're gonna have that professor keep his mouth shut.
• We're gonna have Sillaste say the bow ramp was closed,
• even though he and Treu were up to their knees in the water they saw coming through the ramp.
• We're gonna make sure someone remembers seeing Able Seaman Silver Linde in the bar.
• We're gonna make sure Silver Linde sees Captain Andresson going to the bridge.
• We're gonna make sure it takes exactly 35 MINUTES for the ship to sink after its bow visor comes loose.
• As stated earlier, we're gonna make sure communications are restored at 01:54.
• After the sinking, we're gonna hafta have a couple of ships arrive at the scene to confirm the sinking. (Note to review panel: Better put Sargeant Snorkel on this right away.)
• We're gonna make sure a lot of the passengers and crew are never accounted for.
• To cover our tracks, we're going to put Captain Piht on a list of survivors before we make him disappear.
• We're gonna have Dick Cheney get US firm Rockwater to search Piht's room for a briefcase that belongs to an arms dealer and presumably contains software disguised as submarine aerospace munitions. (Note to review panel: This aspect of the plan might need more work.)

As @Vixen has demonstrated, someone might take that plan seriously and regard it as a shining example of military precision.

I cannot.

 

[The Common Potato]

You wouldn't recognize one if it slapped you upside the head with a dead fish.

I once sort of 'performed' with The Gap Band in a nightclub, in Chichester, doing...

 

[JesseCuster]

Wait. It is not me that called for the reinvestigation.

The fact that the reinvestigation wasn't instigated by you does not mean you are not a conspiracy theorist.

Do you even logic?

 

[JesseCuster]

A sinking with clear military precision:

• Survivors feeling or hearing bangs and shudders

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• violent listing that failed to right it self after a couple of attempts

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Third Captain having to use a hand held device to call MAYDAY (where was the Captain?), thanks to communications being down

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Swedish coastguards got their first information from a truck driver

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Tammes' last MAYDAY 01:22 EET

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Sillaste, Linde and True on a life raft - fully kitted out - before then

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Sillaste and the two Estonian athletes confirm the bow ramp was closed

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Treu and Sillaste confirm they were 'up to their knees in water' in the Engine Room deck 0.

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Linde was seen skiving in the Empire Bar yet claimed he saw Capt Andresson going to the bridge.

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• Communications resumed circa 12:54 Swedish end, when Helsinki Radio came through..

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

• M/V Mariela and M/V Europa arrived at the scene to find nothing there.

How is that evidence of "clear military precision"?

 

[zooterkin]

I once sort of 'performed' with The Gap Band in a nightclub, in Chichester, doing...

I remember doing that on a boat cruising round the Isle of Wight in 1981. My white jeans were filthy afterwards.

 

[EHocking]

From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.

Which sonar system was being used to track vessel traffic?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Clear military precision would have been a couple of torpedoes in to the side of it sinking it in a couple of minutes with no survivors.

 

[Vixen]

The conspiracy theories on this forum have been concocted by a Bjorkman sycophant.

Us ladies are capable of thinking for ourselves.

 

[Vixen]

Just because the car was speeding, on an unlit country road, had no working headlights, hadn't been serviced or MOT'd for ten years, the driver was drunk, the tyres were bald and all the wheels were held on by one wheel nut each and those were loose doesn't prove that caused the accident. It might have been aliens.

Yes, an investigator is expected to actually investigate not 'suppose'.

 

[Vixen]

The documents you referred to did not support your claim, even when you quoted one of them deceptively by omitting the second relevant paragraph.

Please quote the JAIC saying that the Estonia "floated on its superstructure", "floated on a 90° list", or even "was functioning on a 90° list", and provide a precise and accurate citation for the source, and if possible a link, so that we can check that you are not misrepresenting it.

I am not given to deception. You had already been given the document.

 

[Vixen]

You have claimed that the Estonian military were in on the smuggling operation.

I wouldn't know. This is what is claimed by the former head of the JAIC.

 

[Vixen]

Bjorkman, Bollyn, and the comments section of the Daily Mail.

The DM would probably be more intellectually stimulating.

 

[Vixen]

Ha ha ha!

As an ex member of the military that has bern involved in actual naval warfare I say you are full of ◊◊◊◊.

Any commander that came up with that load of bollocks as a plan would probably be demoted to Ward Room pot washer.

You didn't recognise the device Braidwood noticed.