Rolfe
Adult human female
Nah. That's what he sees when women type the words "modesty" and dignity".
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
Nah. That's what he sees when women type the words "modesty" and dignity".
Rolfe
Adult human female
We got it defined by the highest court in the land. Word games are still being played.
Thermal
August Member
The most gossamer veils of civility are not concealing what some posters are saying as well as you think.
They don't, with the inevitability you frame them as being bound to occur. We have data. It doesn't show what you are so certain it inevitably should.
And that shouldn't be insignificant to a skeptical forum. But you badly misunderstand and project if you think that I am saying "therefore, it's not a concern". Just because we don't see it happening doesn't mean in can't, or won't, sooner or later. And I don't want to be the guy telling the victims that they are statistically vanishing.
Again, it's not the base premise I object to. It's how it's used as a thin mask.
As an aside, I very much liked every poster in this thread that I ran across before this. Still do, although I've been greatly surprised at seeing this side of some of them. The posters I don't like, I don't interact with at all.
I'm sure you will have yet another zany interpretation of that being inconsistent or dishonest or whatever, but I struggle to give a ◊◊◊◊.
Yet again, my base position is the (somewhat outdated) status quo. My ideal is no laws penalizing either side, and Big Brother is out of it. We can handle it as we always have. But I don't think transpeople are less deserving of rights, nor are they in the majority mentally ill pervs.
Thermal
August Member
True enough.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,673
So why do YOU think that trans identifying males should be denied access to female bathrooms? Because I don't really believe that you do.
As opposed to the thin mask of misogyny that so many other TRA's wear. Somehow, that mask is opaque and credible to you. But this is always what it seems to boil down to: you think the gender critical folks are bad people.
I make no claim about percentages of pervs, though they absolutely exist and they matter for how rules are implemented. But mentally ill? Of course they are mentally ill, just as people with depression are mentally ill. If they weren't mentally ill, they wouldn't require any treatment, and wouldn't deserve any accommodations. That's not really the important question. I see three actual important questions:
1) What's the best treatment for people with gender dysphoria?
2) To what extent does the public need to accommodate the desire of gender dysphorics to be treated as their preferred sex?
3) What do we do about sexual predators who want to take advantage of accommodations?
The TRA answers are
1) Transition for anyone who desires it, to whatever extent the desire it, and whatever age they desire it, preferably at taxpayer expense.
2) The public should have to accept self-ID completely.
3) Do nothing, deny it's even an issue.
Note that NONE of these questions actually depend on how one defines "woman".
My answers are
1) Never transition kids, they don't know what the ◊◊◊◊ they're doing. Adults are responsible for themselves, but no taxpayer money for transition. I doubt the efficacy of transition as a treatment, but if adults want to do it anyways, I won't stop them. Just don't make me pay for it.
2) People can voluntarily make whatever accommodations they want to, but nobody should be forced to make any at all. Note: not discriminating against someone for housing, employment, etc. is NOT an accommodation. I make this explicit because otherwise you will likely try to claim otherwise.
3) See #2. By allowing people to treat trans-identifying males as males, we mostly remove the benefit for predatory males to try to use female "gender" to gain access to victims.
I still don't really know your answer to these, I can only guess at them. When push comes to shove, you keep defending actual implementations of self ID, which makes me think you basically agree with the TRA's even though you claim you don't.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
And yet they keep happening in spite of your proclamations.
Then, when examples are posted, you dismiss them as "cherry picked".. which is laughable when those cherries are so obvious and easy to find due to the whole cherry orchard being laden with ripe fruit.
If its not cherry picking you claim, then you declare that it wasn't a "real transwoman" as if that is meant to mean anything.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
"I hate these perverted cross-dressing freaks." I never said that. Hate is a very strong word and I don't think there's anyone I would use it about. I hate yoghurt. And salted peanuts.
However, what is the correct, acceptable way to regard perverted, cross-dressing freaks? Liking? Get real. Cherries or not, there are plenty perverted cross-dressing freaks around, and why it should be seen as a terrible crime not to like them, I can't quite figure out here.
However, what is the correct, acceptable way to regard perverted, cross-dressing freaks? Liking? Get real. Cherries or not, there are plenty perverted cross-dressing freaks around, and why it should be seen as a terrible crime not to like them, I can't quite figure out here.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
You better believe it.
Some weird looking 'dude' with a really thin moustache ambles up to you in the men's toilet, and wants to start a conversation...
"No Miss, that's not how this works. If you want a conversation, try the ladies..."
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,673
Not only can they not define "woman", they can't define "transwoman" either.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
You will often see a different side to people when they, or the ones they love, are being badly treated and placed in unnecessary danger.
For me it has been an education to see how quickly posters I have always respected will abandon scepticism when a belief in which they are emotionally invested is shown to conflict with reality.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I have just watched the replay.
For those who have yet to see it, and don't want to know in advance what happened, my brief summary of the debate is in the spoiler...
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Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Webberley is obviously making the rounds at the moment, because here's another debate, this time between her and feminist campaigner Julie Bindel:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Thermal's position as I currently understand it:
"Guys, I'm not saying transwomen are female, and I'm not saying self-ID is a good idea; I'm just saying that I - a man - personally would feel more comfortable using the women's restroom - no big deal right?"
"It's a big deal to me."
"You're a woman, your opinion doesn't count."
"It's a big deal to me."
"That's because you're a hateful ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Nazi hypocrite. Obviously your opinion doesn't count."
"?!"
"Well, since we all agree it's no big deal, I'll just go ahead and use the women's restroom. Glad we worked that out!"
"Guys, I'm not saying transwomen are female, and I'm not saying self-ID is a good idea; I'm just saying that I - a man - personally would feel more comfortable using the women's restroom - no big deal right?"
"It's a big deal to me."
"You're a woman, your opinion doesn't count."
"It's a big deal to me."
"That's because you're a hateful ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Nazi hypocrite. Obviously your opinion doesn't count."
"?!"
"Well, since we all agree it's no big deal, I'll just go ahead and use the women's restroom. Glad we worked that out!"
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Yup, She did an interview with Ben Leo on GB News and he took her apart in comprehensive fashion as well.
Her technique seems to be based on deflection, distraction, ridiculing the questions, whataboutism and when all else fails, blather and lying (not unlike some of the lefties here actually). Ben asked direct questions that required straight answers. She simply refused to give them.
This needs to be said - Webberley is a very dangerous individual. She calls herself a doctor, but in 2018, she was convicted in of running an independent medical agency without being registered. Her license to practice was revoked again by the General Medical Council on 19 July 2024 after failing to comply with her legal obligation to revalidate her license every five years.... she jumped before she was pushed!! She now also operates out the US providing online consultations, and prescribing gender medicine without a license, and in many cases, over without without ever personally meeting or interviewing the client. She is a menace to society - the US government need to put a stop to her antics.
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
To be fair, he shares this position with petty much all of the lefty trans-allies on this forum.... especially the "You're a woman, your opinion doesn't count." bit!
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I think you're smoking something, Thermal. Pretty much all of us have a very clear and succinct definition of woman: adult human female. We even have a solid definition of what female means: members in an anisogamous species who have the reproductive system that evolved to support the production of large gametes, regardless of whether any gametes are actually produced, regardless of whether that system is 100% complete, and regardless of whether parts of that system have been surgically removed.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I think what Thermal means is that this definition doesn't leave room for transwomen to use the women's facilities, so it doesn't count. And also we're not supposed to set policy until we come up with a consensus definition that includes the trans viewpoint.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I hate Jeffrey Marsh. As an individual person, one who has focused their entire internet persona on grooming children. And who does so in a spectacularly creepy way.
I hate Nick Fuentes. As an individual person, who has been remarkably and unabashedly racists.
I think that's about it. Like you, I view hate as an extremely strong word. I similarly view love as an extremely strong word, and I can count the people I love on two hands.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
@Thermal , let's step away from the contentious topic of restrooms for a bit.
What's your take on transwomen in women's representation? When we look at how many women there are on corporate boards, or are CEOs, or hold high political office, how would you count transwomen? Do you count them towards the number of women represented? Towards the number of men? Towards the number of trans folks?
What's your take on transwomen in women's representation? When we look at how many women there are on corporate boards, or are CEOs, or hold high political office, how would you count transwomen? Do you count them towards the number of women represented? Towards the number of men? Towards the number of trans folks?
Thermal
August Member
I'm not generally in the habit of counting representation and sweating profusely about the rounding error level of transpeople, so I can't really say I give much of a ◊◊◊◊. Trying to answer anyway, I would probably count them in different ways depending on context. One of the great benefits of not having a stick shoved up my ass 24/7 is that I don't mind counting people in different groups at different times as appropriate. Representative McBride, for example, I would generally refer to as she/her, yet would count her as transgender if we got all wired out about putting her in a box and the representative count was really important for whatever reason. Counting her as transgender spells it out so that the reader knows exact;y what the situation is, rather than hard-lining one label and the confusion that can follow.
Does that answer your question thoroughly, or do you want to go back to the strawman misrepresentation you were rocking a couple posts up?