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My responses to Michael Shermer

Diamond

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Jun 2, 2003
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I am sick and tired of politicians, and just about everyone else, kowtowing to the religious right’s hypersensitivities and politically correct “tolerance” for diversities of belief—as long as one believes in God—any God will do, except the God who promises virgins in the next life to pilots who fly planes into buildings. Those of us who do not believe in god have had enough of this rhetoric. This is America. We are supposed to be good and do the right thing, not because it will make us rich, get us saved, or reward us in the next life, but because people have value in and of themselves, and because it will make us all better off, individually and collectively. It says so, right there in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights—products of a secular eighteenth-century Enlightenment movement.

Religion and politics should be treated as separate entities. Religion is private and politics is public. If you want more religion, go to church. If you want more politics, go to the capitol. Don’t go to church to politic, and don’t go to the capitol to preach.
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1. America is not the world, dumbass.
2. Read point 1 again until it sinks in, if ever.
3. "Religion and politics should be treated as separate entities" works great just so long as you don't insult Muslims by drawing their Prophet, even nicely. Ask the Danes about the ability of sectarians to conflate the actions of 12 cartoonists with the entire population of Denmark. Or Norway, Or France. Or Italy.
4. I don't live in a country that separates Church and State, what have you to say about that? See 5
5.
6. I thought so. It's amazing how tolerant you are of my lack of freedom, isn't it? Ever spoken on the subject?
7. No I didn't think so. You really should get out of the trailer park and see a bit more of the world.
8. First you need to crack an atlas and find where the "Rest of the World" is. Here's a hint: They're tiny specks just off the western and eastern seaboards. You might need a scanning electron microscope to find them.
 
Silliness aside, it does really jar to read, "this is America" content when you're not expecting it. It's like when a friend you've known for years suddenly tells you they shoot dogs for fun at the weekends and you don't know whether they're joking or not.
I might be stretching a point.
 
I love reading things like this. Anonymous guy with an internet connection calls Michael Shermer a dumbass because he happens to be an American addressing the separation of church and state in America.

Tell us more about how Dr. Shermer lives in a trailer park, that was great!
 
TruthSeeker said:
Dr. Shermer wrote this week's commentary. It seems to have upset Diamond.
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I slept through Friday and forgot to read the Commentary until now.

I'm sorry, Diamond, I don't see what you are upset about. Yes, America and the the Rest of the World are separate, but America tends to influence the rest of the world and vice versa. I think this was well-written and thoughtful.
 
Seperation of church and state has been part of AMERICA since the founding fathers.

He can't claim the same for many other nations. Including some Western ones.

I guess the point is that for the US, part of what made the Revolution so revolutionary was this seperation of church and state. I remember as a child being so proud when studying the founding father (for all their failures, including addressing the slavery issue in negative manner) that they were such radical dudes. No king! Anarchy will erupt! Seperation of church and state - those guys are GODLESS!!! Sure a lot of it was wishful PR on the part of some European nations, still it was kind of fun to read and study those wild and crazy guys Ben Franklin, Thomas Jeffereson and George Washington. If this crazy revolution failed, these guys would be hanging by a rope. These were men with property, wealth (sadly some with slaves), and reputations. They risked it all and one of the things they risked it all for was seperation of church and state. Admittedly, it has never fully happened. But I can't see Thomas Paine being a leader in the administration today! Back then, he was an important part of what made the US different. Losing that, Americans lose much of their short, but important culture.

I remember once being told how many flags are red white and blue, or copy the US flag in other ways. It was because at one point people respected our differences.

Yes there is the rest of the world. But the influence, thinking about the flag choices, was there, and should be there in a postive way again.
 
kittynh said:
...snip...

I remember once being told how many flags are red white and blue, or copy the US flag in other ways. It was because at one point people respected our differences.

Yes there is the rest of the world. But the influence, thinking about the flag choices, was there, and should be there in a postive way again.
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Hmm... nothing to do with the fact that the British flag was generally the Union flag and that was white, red and blue - I always thought the USA flag was red, white and blue because that was the colours of lag material the first USA flag makers had to hand... :)
 
Shermer wrote

This is America. We are supposed to be good and do the right thing, not because it will make us rich, get us saved, or reward us in the next life, but because people have value in and of themselves, and because it will make us all better off, individually and collectively.
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And... ? Most people are good and do the right thing for the latter reasons, whether religious or non-religious.
 
LibraryLady said:
Perhaps Dr. Shermer is fearing the end of that separation--I certainly am.
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Wow that is scary! You mean that in the early days of America there was less religion in government? And over time it has slowly been getting more and more religous?


Just one thing, where in the constitution is this seperation of church and state thing? I can't seem to find it.
 
valis said:
Just one thing, where in the constitution is this seperation of church and state thing? I can't seem to find it.
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You know, where in the constitution is this "fair trial" thing? I can't seem to find it.
 
How is it possible for so many intelligent posters to completely miss the point of what I wrote?

I didn't criticize the US Constitution or the Separation of Church and State - quite the opposite.

I criticized the fact that Shermer appeared to be speaking entirely to Americans without regard for other countries. I sarcastically alluded that this sort of Americacentric crap is the kind of thing that is associated with poor white trash.

He could have written "Brits what is it with the bad teeth. Can't ya afford dentists?" and it wouldn't have been any more offensive.

What has Shermer said about Church/State Separation in other countries including the UK?

The actual formula is [latex]\sqrt{f*** all}[/latex]
 
Diamond said:
How is it possible for so many intelligent posters to completely miss the point of what I wrote?

...

I criticized the fact that Shermer appeared to be speaking entirely to Americans without regard for other countries. I sarcastically alluded that this sort of Americacentric crap is the kind of thing that is associated with poor white trash.
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I wrote
Yes, America and the the Rest of the World are separate, but America tends to influence the rest of the world and vice versa.
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So I did address this.

He could have written "Brits what is it with the bad teeth. Can't ya afford dentists?" and it wouldn't have been any more offensive.
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Oh my, really?

What has Shermer said about Church/State Separation in other countries including the UK?
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Nothing, but maybe he was just addressing the situation in which he actually lives.

The actual formula is [latex]\sqrt{f*** all}[/latex]
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Now that is offensive. I really don't think Dr. Shermer was saying this to The Rest of the World.
 
Diamond said:
I criticized the fact that Shermer appeared to be speaking entirely to Americans without regard for other countries. I sarcastically alluded that this sort of Americacentric crap is the kind of thing that is associated with poor white trash.

He could have written "Brits what is it with the bad teeth. Can't ya afford dentists?" and it wouldn't have been any more offensive.

What has Shermer said about Church/State Separation in other countries including the UK?

The actual formula is [latex]\sqrt{f*** all}[/latex]
Click to expand...

Hmmm....do we need to address the whole planet, whenever we say something?

I can't talk about things happening in my end of the woods?
 
Ok, not keen on the general tone of this thread but I do think there is some validity in what Diamond is saying (if I have interpreted him correctly, he is saying that Shermer seems to have assumed that the audience for the commentary is all American?).

However, the 'this is America' comment comes right off the back of a comment about 9/11, and the hypocrisy of the government in promoting one god whilst condeming another. That is an America-specific context, so I don't think he's saying that this is a US-only problem, he's just using a US-only example.

Perhaps he has no idea how many non-Americans read the commentary?
 
CFLarsen said:
Hmmm....do we need to address the whole planet, whenever we say something?

I can't talk about things happening in my end of the woods?
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Perhaps he should have prefaced it with "For American JREF readers only"

Was he addressing anyone not in the States of the Union? I must have missed it.
 
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