smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Not relevant in this thread
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
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Helen Webberley is debating Helen Joyce on TimesRadio at 9.00pm tomorrow 20th November.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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To be more precise, the problem goes away if we all use this definition. It doesn't go away if only one side uses it.
But still, given that this hypothetical would accomplish his stated goal by his stated preferred methods, it's strange that he's adamant that we not use that definition. There's absolutely no consistency to his position, he regularly contradicts himself.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
I predict we'll see a similar argument as we've seen here - Webberley will use "female" to include transwomen, while Joyce won't. Webberley's view is that transwomen were born female (although with what is commonly called a male body) and thus are women.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
No, they're not. The end.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I miss the days when I was still innocent, when the arrival of a fresh progressive name in this thread brought with it the hope that I would finally find out what definition of "woman" we were supposed to be working with.
Nowadays, it's just Thermal trying to gaslight us into thinking that we can't make any decisions or take any action, until we get that working definition from the TRA side.
What he doesn't understand is that the TRA side's failure to provide a definition - after years of begging them for one - just means I'm resolved to make decisions and take action without them. It's one really useful, game-changing thing they could bring to the table, and it's the one thing they obviously do not have. So I'll play the game as it lays, without their precious lack of a definition.
Nowadays, it's just Thermal trying to gaslight us into thinking that we can't make any decisions or take any action, until we get that working definition from the TRA side.
What he doesn't understand is that the TRA side's failure to provide a definition - after years of begging them for one - just means I'm resolved to make decisions and take action without them. It's one really useful, game-changing thing they could bring to the table, and it's the one thing they obviously do not have. So I'll play the game as it lays, without their precious lack of a definition.
Rolfe
Adult human female
No. You either let some men in or you don't. If you narrow the criteria to decrease the number of men you let in, you don't shift the actual problem one millimetre. It's either "some men" or "no men".
Rolfe
Adult human female
No it doesn't.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
I thought we were talking about a third "gender neutral space" here.
Thermal
August Member
That's what I've been saying, over and over. The TRAs are inconsistent in usage. You guys are blind to the language and society and will only recognize one limited definition. We need a consistent defined definition.
My personal understanding is gender is in your head. So great, you're a woman if you think you are and I'm fine with that. But what goes on between the ears does not grant you access to the girl's showers.
Ya I can see it's all too much for you, no matter how simply it gets explained to you over and over.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
What makes you think that a separate restroom for transwomen will satisfy men who believe they should be in the women's restroom?
If what we're told by trans rights activists is true, access to the women's restroom is a matter of human rights and mental health necessity. A man who will commit suicide if he can't use the women's restroom won't be less despondent if you give him a special third restroom instead.
Rolfe
Adult human female
If that's what you're talking about, that video explains why it doesn't work. The trans lobby won't accept it. It would be absolutely fine by me, but that's not the point, for the trans-identifying cohort. Their entire objective is to be able to use the facilities of the opposite sex, and being required to use a third neutral space will not do. It's most emphatically not about not wanting to use the facilities of the sex they actually are, it's about very positively and definitely being accepted into the facilities of the sex they would prefer to be.
For example, some years ago a swimming association set up a special gender-neutral category of competition specifically to keep the trans lobby happy. Nobody entered.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Yup. You can't please everybody. I think it's already gone too far in some cases. My goal is not to "to keep the trans lobby happy" because frankly most of their demands go too far. I am willing to go as far as "let's also have some gender neutral spaces" and if that's not enough for them I have to shrug my shoulders and say "you can't please everyone." Women's sports should be for biological females. The same goes for women's prisons. But we could have a third category of prison just for them if they really want. And if they aren't happy about that solution, too bad I say. If you don't like it then stay out of prison. Don't do the things that will get you sent there. Has there ever been a single case of a transgender female demanding to be sent to a prison for males? If there has, I haven't heard it.
Ziggurat
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I'm not blind to that at all. I'm saying it's delusional to think that the TRA's will ever be consistent with their usage, or that they will adopt one limited definition. So you can call for that all you want to, but it's never going to happen.
But their refusal to use one definition doesn't mean I can't. That's not how it works.
You say that, and yet, time and time again, you attack the people who say the same thing. You constantly attack anyone who argues for why males shouldn't be granted access to the girl's showers. So I don't really believe you. If this is your actual position, why do you constantly undermine it?
Thermal
August Member
An interesting, if somewhat expected, read on that:
Where do incarcerated trans women prefer to be housed and why? Adding nuanced understandings to a complex debate through the voices of formerly incarcerated trans women in Australia and the United States - PMC
Incarcerated trans women experience significant victimization, mistreatment, barriers to gender-affirming care, and human rights violations, conferring high risk for trauma, psychological distress, self-harm, and suicide. Across the globe, most ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Doesn't say much about trans men (females):An interesting, if somewhat expected, read on that:
Where do incarcerated trans women prefer to be housed and why? Adding nuanced understandings to a complex debate through the voices of formerly incarcerated trans women in Australia and the United States - PMC
Incarcerated trans women experience significant victimization, mistreatment, barriers to gender-affirming care, and human rights violations, conferring high risk for trauma, psychological distress, self-harm, and suicide. Across the globe, most ...
Ziggurat
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You know you're in for a treat when the abstract starts throwing around terms like "chrononormativity" and "heteronormative time".
I am amused by the statements from a trans identifying males regarding why they don't want to be housed with other trans identifying males:
“I prefer not to have all the cattiness and all that extra ◊◊◊◊ like that comes with that”
I guess even trans people are transphobic.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Transgender identified female prisoners don't want to be housed in men's prisons.
Transgender identified male prisoners are desperate to be housed in women's prisons.
Transgender identified females don't want to access men's toilets and bathrooms.
Transgender identified males are desperate to access women's toilets and bathrooms.
Transgender identified females (with very few exceptions) don't want to compete in men's sports.
Transgender identified males are desperate to compete in men's sports.
Transgender identified females don't want to access men's health centres.
Transgender identified males are desperate to access women's health centres.
There is one common factor running through all of these facts. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to work out what that common factor is
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Ziggurat
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Not all of them, as it turns out. Some of them prefer being housed in male prisons, as it allows them to prostitute themselves to other inmates.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I believe I have heard of a case of a trans-identifying woman wanting to be housed in a male prison, though I don't remember the specifics. As far as I recall the authorities refused, for her own safety. It's not that surprising, these women are mentally ill.
It's quite common for trans-identifying girls to go into the men's toilets. They often behave very inappropriately, because they don't realise that behaviour conventions are very different from in the women's facilities. Since they generally don't pass at all, the men tend to be very embarrassed. Older trans-identifying women who have become very virilised by testosterone usually use the men's because they'd get hassle in the women's. They have learned how to behave.
It's quite common for trans-identifying girls to go into the men's toilets. They often behave very inappropriately, because they don't realise that behaviour conventions are very different from in the women's facilities. Since they generally don't pass at all, the men tend to be very embarrassed. Older trans-identifying women who have become very virilised by testosterone usually use the men's because they'd get hassle in the women's. They have learned how to behave.