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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Can I politely urge you to listen? You claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia floated on a 90° list. You have been asked to cite and quote, and if possible link to, the JAIC saying this. For some reason you are unable to do this, and keep citing things other than the JAIC in an attempt to support your claim.

You claim that the video is "based on the JAIC report". Please cite and quote the section or sections of the JAIC report that support the claim about the Estonia floating on a 90° list is based on.

You have claimed that the JAIC said that the Estonia floated on a 90° list in a "technical report and press release (94/95)". Please provide an accurate citation for the report so it can be identified, and quote the passage that supports your claim. If possible please provide a link to it.

This really shouldn't be difficult. Unless, of course, your claims are untrue.
If there was no hull breach - and the car deck is well above the waterline - why didn't it just turn over, like the Heweliusz - instead of floating on its side. There are no JAIC calculations showing this. Instead it seems to work backwards saying this must have happened and that must have happened based on an end theoretical formula, i.e., the windows on deck 4 "must have smashed".
 
It's very important for ship captains not to hit anything. Shell plating is surprisingly fragile. You mentioned a speed of 70 mph in the context of an object striking the surface of the water. You're not wrong about what happens in that case, but it's not very relevant to understanding the kinds of collision we're dealing with here.

SS Park Victory struck the rocks near Finland at an unknown speed. However, the reports indicate she was dragging her anchor in a strong gale at the time. This will naturally limit her speed. Further, the more extensive reports indicate she was battered repeatedly against the rocks by wind and waves. That's not quite the same scenario as a single strike.

Similarly, MS Costa Concordia struck the rocks near Gigli, Italy at 16 knots. That was enough to puncture her hull. And of course she was moving through the water at the time, dealing with water resistance at least as it affected the underwater portion of the hull.

16 kts is on the order of 8 m/s. The reference speed in our car example comes out to about 20 kts. Intuitively we can quite easily say that a ship that hits a rock while going 20 kts won't suprise anyone by suffering a hull breach. @Andy_Ross has posted a number of photographs of ships that suffered fractures in hull plating under normal operating speeds and water conditions.

Now that we have shown that vertical and horizontal collisions result in the same kinetic energy (although arrived at by different means) we can equate horizontal collisions between ships and rocks with vertical collisions between ships and rocks. All we need to know is the kinetic energy at the point of collision in order to continue our reasoning. The next exciting chapter will be whether a vertical velocity of 8 m/s makes sense for a sinking ship.
I did all that, plugging in the relevant calculation figures...and was heavily punished as a result.
 
If there was no hull breach - and the car deck is well above the waterline - why didn't it just turn over, like the Heweliusz - instead of floating on its side. There are no JAIC calculations showing this. Instead it seems to work backwards saying this must have happened and that must have happened based on an end theoretical formula, i.e., the windows on deck 4 "must have smashed".
What is the height of the car deck above the waterline?
What was the height of the waves?
What was the rise and fall of the bow in to the waves due to pitching of the ship?

How would the hull be breached above the waterline?
How would a hull breach above the waterline be caused?
 
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If there was no hull breach - and the car deck is well above the waterline - why didn't it just turn over, like the Heweliusz - instead of floating on its side. There are no JAIC calculations showing this. Instead it seems to work backwards saying this must have happened and that must have happened based on an end theoretical formula, i.e., the windows on deck 4 "must have smashed".
Can I politely urge you to listen? The post you were replying to politely requested that you What you have posted here is irrelevant to that polite request.

Vixen, please read the following carefully, and provide a relevant response. This response needs to either:

a) provide predications and quotations, from the JAIC, that support your claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia "floated on a 90° list", or
b) concede that you cannot support your claim.

Please provide precise citations, and quotations from the JAIC, to support your claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia "floated on a 90° list".
 
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No, you said that you know it was drawn by Edinburgh Uni.

Because they are both prestigious research units, you know that work that is "clearly credited to Strathclyde University" was actually done by Edinburgh?
I knew it had nothing to do with Bjorkman and was a research project graphic but if you really needed to know which uni, you could look it up for yourself or do a search.
 
What is the height of the car deck above the waterline?
What was the height of the waves?
What was the rise and fall of the bow in to the waves due to pitching of the ship?

How would the hull be breached above the waterline?
How would a hull breach above the waterline be caused?
I had all that information to plug in as at the time but excluding weather conditions. I was just trying to find impact on seabed post weather impact (sinking proper).

Braidwood found a breach in the forward bulkhead.
 
Can I politely urge you to listen? The post you were replying to politely requested that you provide precise citations, and quotations from the JAIC, to support your claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia "floated on a 90° list". What you have posted here is irrelevant to that polite request.

Vixen, please read the following carefully, and provide a relevant response. This response needs to either:

a) provide predications and quotations, from the JAIC, that support your claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia "floated on a 90° list", or
b) concede that you cannot support your claim.
Please refer to aforesaid technical part report JAIC 1995 and press release 1994. Which says it was functioning on a 90° list before going off the radar at 01:48.

But there are no calculations shown as to how.
 
Please refer to aforesaid technical part report JAIC 1995 and press release 1994. Which says it was functioning on a 90° list before going off the radar at 01:48.

But there are no calculations shown as to how.
Please provide accurate citations (with links if possible) to, and direct quotations from, this part report and press release.

ETA: I'd really love to see someone saying that a ship was "functioning on a 90° list".
 
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I knew it had nothing to do with Bjorkman and was a research project graphic but if you really needed to know which uni, you could look it up for yourself or do a search.
How did you know it was "a research project graphic"? All sorts of people can produce computer graphics.

And incidentally, you didn't, as you have claimed, say "IIRC" when you said you knew it was from Edinburgh Uni. Here's the post in full:
Bloody Nora. When I said I don't remember where I got it from I WAS REFERRING TO THE SITE. Kimo sabe? I do know it was drawn by Edinburgh Uni.

So it seems that, despite your colossal intellect and incredible powers of memory, you are yet again failing to recall correctly.
 
His family moved back to England when he was three. Mum worked at Bow Road police station. Could certainly hear Bow Bells at a very young age.
Since the 'he' in question is Stanley Unwin, whether he was or was not Cockney is irrelevant, since he wasn't known for slang, as you claimed, let alone Cockney specifically, but for his own invented language, Unwinese. http://www.stanleyunwin.com/unwinese.htm
 
If there was no hull breach - and the car deck is well above the waterline - why didn't it just turn over, like the Heweliusz - instead of floating on its side. There are no JAIC calculations showing this. Instead it seems to work backwards saying this must have happened and that must have happened based on an end theoretical formula, i.e., the windows on deck 4 "must have smashed".
Why are you dealing in hypotheticals, when we know there was a hull breach? The bow fell off.
 
Since the 'he' in question is Stanley Unwin, whether he was or was not Cockney is irrelevant, since he wasn't known for slang, as you claimed, let alone Cockney specifically, but for his own invented language, Unwinese. http://www.stanleyunwin.com/unwinese.htm
I can understand why Vixen is confused and thinks a comparison with someone who made up his own words and meanings is apt
 

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