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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
I showed you Ovberg's drawings of water streaming out of goosenecks. Why ignore eyewitness testimony
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There's no ignoring going on. It doesn't tell you how the water got into the ship. Only that the water pressure was higher wherever those pipes led to, so he was almost certainly below sea level at his location in the ship.

Can you explain to us what you think is the significance of Ovberg's observations that anyone is overlooking?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
There's no ignoring going on. It doesn't tell you how the water got into the ship. Only that the water pressure was higher wherever those pipes led to, so he was almost certainly below sea level at his location in the ship.

Can you explain to us what you think is the significance of Ovberg's observations that anyone is overlooking?
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The first thought when >6,000 tonnes of water enters a vessel causing it to sink in HTIRTY-FIVE MINUTES is a tear or breach in the hull. The car deck - above the waterline - only had a capacity for 2,000 tonnes.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
See that would involve actually understanding what you wrote, and that I suspect is the problem.
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I suspect a Simonton gap.

Vixen said:
The first thought when >6,000 tonnes of water enters a vessel causing it to sink in HTIRTY-FIVE MINUTES is a tear or breach in the hull. The car deck - above the waterline - only had a capacity for 2,000 tonnes.
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It sank HTIRTY-FIVE'' after its hull developed a Simonton gap.
 
Vixen said:
"Irrelevant"? Read THE NEW STATESMAN


<snip>


Obviously, this is the opinion of one guy. I neither agree nor disagree with him. It just is.
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How is such a state of mind possible? Either you think it plausible in which case you agree, even if tentatively with him, or you do not think it plausible and you disagree with him.

Not having an opinion is impossible on any question that relates to objective reality that you have read. You are either a theist or an atheist, you are either a stamp collector or you're not. You can certainly refuse to give your opinion on something, but that isn't the same as not having one.
 
Vixen said:
The first thought when >6,000 tonnes of water enters a vessel causing it to sink in HTIRTY-FIVE MINUTES is a tear or breach in the hull.
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According to who?

The car deck - above the waterline - only had a capacity for 2,000 tonnes.
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And if that’s all the ship was, that would mean something.

Stay in your lane.
 
Vixen said:
Read Dick Cheney's bio. He was mercilessly ambitious to the extent of even going to war to achieve personal wealth and power.
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You know, reading this again it's amazing how a request for Vixen to withdraw the claim that Cheney was involved because he wasn't the CEO at the time was somehow morphed by Vixen into her somehow thinking she needs to explain to me who Cheney was.

It's like she assumes anyone who disagrees with her on a specific point relating to a thing, person or event doesn't know what the thing, person or event even is and she needs to tell them to look them up as though they hadn't heard of them before.
 
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Vixen said:
24 Nov 1994. That Cheney was appointed CEO in 1995, doesn't mean he wasn't around. The JAIC report wasn't completed until December 1997.
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He was, at that time, working for two think-tanks - the Council on Foreign Relationships and the American Enterprise Institute. He was not at Haliburton. He is not relevant here.
 
Vixen said:
The first thought when >6,000 tonnes of water enters a vessel causing it to sink in HTIRTY-FIVE MINUTES is a tear or breach in the hull. The car deck - above the waterline - only had a capacity for 2,000 tonnes.
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So that's a no. You can't tell us what the significance was that you said was being ignored. You just have an irrelevant 'first thought'.


I don't think your 2,000 tons number was the capacity of the car deck. It might have been the amount of water that the report estimates flooded into the deck initially but that water did not remain on the car deck. It found its way down to lower decks.

The ship was 155m long and 24m wide. And the car deck was almost the full size of the deck, less the central corridors, and at least 4m high plus headroom for articulated trucks. So very conservatively perhaps 125m x 20m x 4m car deck volume. That's over 10,000 cubic metres, and seawater is over a tonne per cubic meter.
 
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Andy_Ross said:
Driving over the A66 near Appleby few years ago, the bonnet of a car coming in the opposite direction flew up and pivoted back in to the drivers view smashing his windscreen.
He lost control but luckily it was a dual carriageway section and he just hit the central barrier.
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20aug2025 mercedes eqs450 fail to secure front bonnet. flipped up and smash into windscreen1 min long (is that 1' or 1" ???? lol)

BONNET FLEW OPEN WHEN DRIVING!! Smashed up car :( (10 min)

It's not that uncommon an occurrence sadly (in fact I've had it happen to me at 110kph- had an old HJ Kingswood that had minor front end damage (roo hit) and seemed ok- in fact it was for a couple of years until one day it just came open while driving and flipped the bonnet up over the windscreen....)

NOT fun.....
 
junkshop said:
Cheney is utterly and completely irrelevant to this topic, as He didn't work for Haliburton until October 1995.
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See thats what 'they' WANT you to think... he secretly began working for them in 1939!!!!!
And don't you try and nitpick that he wasnt born until 1941.... thats just a coverup.....
 
Vixen said:
Really? Is that all the JAIC had to say about 'the bodies on the bridge'? No names? What is 'challenging' about identifying them when protocol stated they wore uniform on duty.
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Do pay attention. What I quoted in the post your replied to was the Rockwater report from the dives.

Regarding the JAIC report identifying the bodies on the bridge, I posted that a couple of days ago (Friday):

Here_to_learn said:
I did think about it, and decided that I didn't trust your statement that there is no mention of the bridge crew. So I checked, and it turns out that there is a chapter about it... How surprising... https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt13_2.html#1

Here is a small excerpt from that chapter.
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The Estonia Collection contains about 16500 documents, is maintained by the Swedish National Archive, and is available online. You just need to register an account.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
There's no ignoring going on. It doesn't tell you how the water got into the ship. Only that the water pressure was higher wherever those pipes led to, so he was almost certainly below sea level at his location in the ship.

Can you explain to us what you think is the significance of Ovberg's observations that anyone is overlooking?
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Someone left a tap on in the crew washroom?
 
Vixen said:
Really? Is that all the JAIC had to say about 'the bodies on the bridge'? No names? What is 'challenging' about identifying them when protocol stated they wore uniform on duty.
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What do you think the uniform is for a winter storm when the ship is sinking?

We went through this in detail recently with illustrations of different clothing worn by merchant crews and storm clothing.
 
Vixen said:
The first thought when >6,000 tonnes of water enters a vessel causing it to sink in HTIRTY-FIVE MINUTES is a tear or breach in the hull. The car deck - above the waterline - only had a capacity for 2,000 tonnes.
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When the bow is known to have fallen off and water is entering through the opening that is the breach in the hull I would suspect.

Also the car deck has openings to the decks below. Ships are not watertight from above, they have large openings for ventilation, exhaust air, engine exhaust and engine air.
They have numerous small ventilators doorways and windows.
 
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