Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I'm genuinely curious as to whether a woman with CAIS could do this. Maybe some can and some can't? I met a woman last summer whom I'm moderately sure has CAIS but it's not something you can just ask a casual acquaintance to do!
Interesting question. My understanding is that CAIS still leads to a male-typical skeletal structure, including a male-typical pelvis. The distribution of fat across the body tends to be a bit more female-typical though. I'm not sure how that's going to influence center of mass.
 
@LondonJohn

It's really not about physically obstructing women on their way to/from an abortion clinic. It's about demonstrating against women on their way to/from an abortion clinic. As has already been explained to you several times, women considering or having an abortion are often in a vulnerable and fearful state, with deep senses of confliction and dehumanisation. And UK legislators have decided that the rights of these women to attend abortion clinics without being demonstrated against trumps the rights of people to hold demonstrations/protests in the vicinity of abortion clinics.
Why don't you have this same level of care and empathy toward females when it comes to single-sex spaces? Females who are naked in the shower are vulnerable, and feel a lot of fear and dehumanization when there's a strange male who can see them without consent. But you support males having the special privilege of overriding female boundaries in showers and changing rooms.
 
I'm glad you've made that clear. By page 326, post #13023 some people might not know what your opinion on this issue was.
I have always made this clear right, from the outset. Its not my fault if you can't keep up or have been too lazy to read back.
You and the other two may have not noticed, but pretty much everyone who disagree with you have left the thread, which now mostly consists of three people agreeing with each other.
That often happens when people get pissy and butthurt because their claims and opinions are challenged using facts and evidence. They can't stand the heat of having their claims put under close scrutiny, which usually results in the inconsistency and stupidity of those claims being exposed.
So they run away in a fit of intellectual cowardice.
 
Last edited:
It's not a problem for YOU, because YOU don't have to deal with it, and YOU apparently don't go out in public and YOU aren't likely to be subjected to sexual offending, therefore YOU have declared that it can't possibly be a problem for anyone else.

Empathy seems to be sorely lacking from YOU.
BOOM 💥
 
What difference does that make?

Says a human being who rarely uses a public bathroom. And where the only times in almost 70 years has only encountered those situations in bars. And even then, they were almost all gay bars. And not once did I freak out.

There are lots of real problems facing society. Climate change, poverty, health care, war, violence, and others. And the girl you felt sure was a guy used the stall next to yours three years ago consumes you?
A nothinburger issue that consumes the hateful karens of this world. How dare those people try to live their lives in a way that offends me! Something must be done! Next up, homosexuals and atheists.
 
A nothinburger issue that consumes the hateful karens of this world. How dare those people try to live their lives in a way that offends me! Something must be done! Next up, homosexuals and atheists.
...says the man who never had to face, and never will have to face, the "nothingburger issue" of dealing with a menstrual flood in a public toilet, who is never likely to have to deal with the "nothingburger issue" of being raped and needing the male-free services of a rape crisis centre, who will never have to deal with the "nothingburger issue" of being beaten to a pulp by a male partner and needing the male-free environment of a domestic abuse shelter.

You think people should be empathetic towards transgender identified males - where's your empathy for raped and beaten women!
 
Last edited:
A nothinburger issue that consumes the hateful karens of this world. How dare those people try to live their lives in a way that offends me! Something must be done! Next up, homosexuals and atheists.
I'd like you to take a step back just a moment and really think about your position.

A complete stranger walks into the female showers at the gym, and strips down. They proceed to wander over to the showers fully in the buff, with their penis and testicles fully visible, all while casually noting the naked females around them.

And your position is that the females who consented to neither male exhibitionism nor male voyeurism are hateful karens.

Is that really the view you intend to uphold? That females have no right to consent?
 

A nothinburger issue that consumes the hateful karens of this world. How dare those people try to live their lives in a way that offends me! Something must be done! Next up, homosexuals and atheists.
Karen is a dreadfully hateful word, and it is specifically towards women. A woman who feels strongly about something, or has the gall to complain about something, is a Karen. It's a term that means a woman should just STFU.
 
Why do you need to stipulate?
So as to avoid this little digression and allow you to focus on my question.

"Which provisions of the EA should be invoked?" in the event that the city managers in charge of Hampstead Heath pools want to mix males and females in a particular way. Does the Equality Act actually ban mixing transgender people of one sex with cisgender people of another?

If so, where?

Emphasis mine, seeing as you seem to have missed that rather important clause.
You seem to have missed the part where I mentioned "how those terms should be interpreted when they appear in the EqA" and even put part of that in italics for emphasis, hoping no one would miss it.

I've yet to see any argument given that service providers must use terminology in conformance with the way gendered language was used in the EA 2010, nor that the EA outright bans mixing cisgender people of one sex with transgender people of another sex.

Where are you seeing that in the EA itself?
 
Last edited:
"Which provisions of the EA should be invoked?" in the event that the city managers in charge of Hampstead Heath pools want to mix males and females in a particular way. Does the Equality Act actually ban mixing transgender people of one sex with cisgender people of another?
Nope. This is a mixed sex facility which is permissible, although they might get challenged on indirect discrimination.

The key point is they just can't call a mixed sex facility a 'women's pond'.
 
I've yet to see any argument given that service providers must use terminology in conformance with the way gendered language was used in the EA 2010,
That was the whole bloody point of the Supreme Court judgement.
The issue here is only whether the appointment of a trans woman who has a GRC counts as the appointment of a woman and so counts towards achieving the goal set in the gender representation objective, namely that the board has 50% of non-executive members who are women. In our judgment it does not.
 
Nope. This is a mixed sex facility which is permissible, although they might get challenged on indirect discrimination.

The key point is they just can't call a mixed sex facility a 'women's pond'.

They can have a mixed-sex facility, but not only can they not call it a "women's pond", they can't exclude any males from it. They cannot say, we allow all women but only some men in here. They just can't.

They can have a pool for women only
They can have a pool for men only
They can have a pool for trans-identified people only (both sexes)
They can have a pool for trans-identified men only
They can have a pool for trans-identified women only

All of these are legitimate forms of discrimination, if it is judged to be a "legitimate aim" to provide such facilities. But they can't mix and match. If they allow in some male people they must allow all of them in. If they allow in some non-trans-identifying people they must allow all of them in. There is no way round it.

And that's before we even start on the possible indirect discrimination possibilities in making a previously single-sex space mixed-sex.
 
Last edited:
The key point is they just can't call a mixed sex facility a 'women's pond'.
Why not? It is obvious from their statements and their behavior that they mean a pond for transwomen and ciswomen rather than a pond for females only.
That was the whole bloody point of the Supreme Court judgement.
The SC judgement did not purport to tell service providers how to use gendered language, so far as I can tell, unless they are found in violation of some provisions of the EA.

It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word “woman” other than when it is used in the provisions of the EA 2010.​

This of course brings us back to where in the EA 2010 it says that service providers cannot do what the ponds are trying to do, that is, mix sexes based on gender identity.

But they can't mix and match.
Says who and where did they say it?
 
Last edited:
Why not? It is obvious from their statements and their behavior that they mean a pond for transwomen and ciswomen rather than a pond for females only.
Because the EA must interpret "women" as "female", when discrimination is alleged. That's the SC ruling.

If you are accused of illegal sex discrimination under the EA, you cannot defend your policy by saying that you are using woman to mean gender, not sex.

The SC has ruled that the EA can only take your use of woman to mean sex. Thus, the SC has made it illegal for you to advertise mixed-sex facilities as women-only.

The cite for this is the SC ruling, which you have already seen. The conversation goes something like this:

"You can't segregate based on a gender interpretation of woman."

"Where does it say that?"

"In the EA."

"Who decided the EA means sex not gender?"

"The SC."

But wheeere? Where does it saaay? I donttt understaaand.

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to correct formatting
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to add a little more to that last post. The Scottish Ministers previously agreed that “woman” in section 2 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 must "bear the same meaning as the term “woman” in section 11 and section 212 of the EA 2010" and thus the Supreme Court need only interpret the EA 2010 in order to resolve the key issue under dispute, which was "whether the appointment of a trans woman who has a GRC counts as the appointment of a woman and so counts towards achieving the goal set in the gender representation objective" in the 2018 Act.

Does any of this tell us whether service providers are allowed to mix gender identity and birth sex together when designating users of mixed-sex spaces? Not so far as I can tell, but activists seem quite hopeful.
 
If you are accused of illegal sex discrimination under the EA, you cannot defend your policy by saying that you are using woman to mean gender, not sex.
Not if you are the Scottish Ministers, who already stipulated that they wrote their 2018 law atop the meanings of the EA 2010.
Thus, the SC has made it illegal for you to advertise mixed-sex facilities as women-only.
I don't think they said anything about facilities anywhere in the decision.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom