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Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

Okay, I'm going to say this to everybody. Not singling out any particular person:

If your rebuttal to anything I'm saying includes the word "offend", "offending", "offensive" or any other inflection of that word then you are misrepresenting my argument, being dishonest, and arguing fallaciously. Similarly if you use any inflection of the word "feelings", you are misrepresenting me. You should stop doing that.
And 'hurty' the new rightist term of abuse.
 
Also, just hold on a minute. Almost anything could be taken as an incitement to deadly violence if the listener is unhinged enough. If I stand up in front of a crowd and say "these people are monsters, they are taking your jobs, they are raping your children, they are coming here to replace us good upstanding folk with their savage ways" I am not explicitly calling for violence against them. But there's going to be someone in that crowd who interprets it as such and will want to try to protect themselves by acting violently against those people.
We're heading into stochastic terrorism territory. Just enough cover for the agitators to shield themselves from responsibility.
 
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
As has been pointed out, you do not understand the context of that comment.
 
That Nazis have shown that they will use the idea that we should be tolerant of all free speech to gain power and kill millions for the crime of existing.

I like that quote as it is is very Pratchett or Douglas Adams.
I rather like:

“No practical definition of freedom would be completely without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based."​

 
That Nazis have shown that they will use the idea that we should be tolerant of all free speech to gain power and kill millions for the crime of existing.
That is an incorrect summary of the situation in 1930's Europe. Weimar Germany had laws against hate speech, they closed down hundreds of Nazi propaganda papers.... and they even banned Hitler from speaking.

Censorship leads to authoritarianism.

In any case, I will take my cues from people who actually KNOW about Free Speech, having studied it for many years. People like Nadine Strossen (President of the ACLU from 1991 to 2008, and one of the greatest experts on freedom of speech alive today), and Greg Lukianoff & Jonathan Haidt (authors of "Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure")


The below is just a fraction of what is available for those who have the courage to have their worldviews confronted and challenged. In the link these experts comprehensively debunk false claims such as...
"Hate speech laws are important for reducing intolerance, even if there may be some examples of abuse."
"Free speech is the tool of the powerful, not the powerless"
"Free speech was created under the false notion that words and violence are distinct, but we now know that certain speech is more akin to violence."
"Free speech rests on the faulty notion that words are harmless"
"Shoutdowns/heckler’s vetoes are an exercise of speech rights, not censorship"


Here's a couple to get you started - the rest is in the link - if you dare to go there!

Assertion: Free speech was created under the false notion that words and violence are distinct, but we now know that certain speech is more akin to violence.​
Retort: "Physical violence directly and inevitably causes at least some physical harm, as well as associated psychic harm. Words may indeed have the same harmful potential. Unlike physical violence, though, speech can influence listeners only through their intermediating perceptions, reactions, and actions, and only as one of countless other factors that also have potential influence. For this reason, hurling words at someone is materially different from hurling the proverbial “sticks and stones.” Sticks and stones directly cause harm, through their own force, but words at most can potentially contribute to harm; whether particular words actually do cause harm depends on how individual listeners perceive and respond to them, which in turn is influenced by the listeners’ personalities and circumstances, including innumerable other factors that also potentially influence their psyches and behavior."
"
Edited by jimbob: 
snipped for rule 4
 
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As has been pointed out, you do not understand the context of that comment.
Whoever "pointed it out" is wrong - I know exactly what the context was.

I Minored in "The American War of Independence" (as it was called back then) when I was doing my Aerospace Engineering degree in the mid 1980s - I am very well versed in that history thank you very much.
 
And 'hurty' the new rightist term of abuse.
Exactly. Those who condemn us for being against so-called "hurty words" do so in order to excuse the kind of disgusting and demeaning language that makes them feel superior.

I was verbally bullied at school - extensively. And by extensively I mean that I was the butt of every joke and every insult by almost every other kid in the school. And let me tell you, yes, those words ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hurt. They changed me. I quickly learned to keep my head down because otherwise, a taunting insult would be hurled at it, and occasionally a small rock, and that instinct has stayed with me my whole life. And that wasn't even hate speech. I was white, and male, and not part of any marginalised group. I was just a weird square, or in other words, autistic. Hate speech is worse. Much, much worse.

So I say that the staunchest defenders of "free speech" do so in order to be my high school bullies. They have never been hurt by words like I have. They were the ones who were doing the hurting, and they never want to stop hurting people because in their sick minds they think it makes them better than I am.

◊◊◊◊.

That.

If anyone's wondering why I take this so personally, that's why. If anyone's wondering why I stick up for the rights of marginalised people to exist without having to endure the scorn, derision, and dehumanisation that hate speech brings, that's why. If anyone's wondering why I absolutely deny and repudiate the toxic and disgusting notion that "words can only hurt you if you let them", that's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ why.

Here endeth the lesson. Peace.
 
In any case, I will take my cues from people who actually KNOW about Free Speech, having studied it for many years. People like Nadine Strossen (President of the ACLU from 1991 to 2008, and one of the greatest experts on freedom of speech alive today), and Greg Lukianoff & Jonathan Haidt (authors of "Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure")
From what I can see, this looks like exactly the kind of organisation that Marsh was talking about in this article, which you undoubtedly haven't read despite my posting it several times.
 
That is an incorrect summary of the situation in 1930's Europe. Weimar Germany had laws against hate speech, they closed down hundreds of Nazi propaganda papers.... and they even banned Hitler from speaking.

...snip...
Do you therefore hold that someone should be allowed to campaign i.e. use their freedom of expression to explain why and how this policy should be enacted and if legally enacted by the legislation and enforced by a fair judiciary would result in people being legally executed for simply existing?
 
The laws that someone is campaigning for could have checks to ensure only certain mentally ill people are put to death, for example those that are deemed to be a danger to society but have committed no heinous crime, allow for an appeal system and review by a jury. Would that then change your mind?

WIth what you have stated so far you actually agree with my view that Nazis' should not have freedom of speech.
No I do not.

Only calls for direct and immediate violence should be illegal.
 
Do you therefore hold that someone should be allowed to campaign i.e. use their freedom of expression to explain why and how this policy should be enacted and if legally enacted by the legislation and enforced by a fair judiciary would result in people being legally executed for simply existing?
Sounds like you are saying that the ideas of Nazism cannot be defeated they can only be hidden & censored. That's a pretty sad commentary on British society.

Why don't you think the values of freedom and tolerance and respect can defeat the values of Nazism in an open debate?
 
Only calls for direct and immediate violence should be illegal.

Deliberately poisoning peoples' minds with lies and misinformation until they take violent action without you needing to explicitly call for it is fine, then? Like Trump did up to and on Jan 7th? There's absolutely nothing that could or should be done about that?
 
Deliberately poisoning peoples' minds with lies and misinformation until they take violent action without you needing to explicitly call for it is fine, then? Like Trump did up to and on Jan 7th? There's absolutely nothing that could or should be done about that?
Why can't they be defeated with facts and truth?

If your ideals cannot win a debate against lies and misinformation, and the only way they can win is through censorship and book burning, then maybe your ideals are not that great.
 
Why can't they be defeated with facts and truth?

Because a distressingly high number of people appear to be incapable of telling the difference between 'facts and truth' and 'lies and misinformation'. Why so many people are leaving school without acquiring even the most basic of critical thinking skills is a question for another thread, and which imo requires urgent investigation and remedying.

If your ideals cannot win a debate against lies and misinformation, and the only way they can win is through censorship and book burning, then maybe your ideals are not that great.

Nobody has suggested either. Just the holding to account of those who incite violence using lies and misinformation.
 

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