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Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

The USA versions tend to be stronger, saying something like "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
Different IMO. That just reaffirms your right to say nothing, even encouraging you to do so. What it does NOT do is threaten you by warning that if you don't speak in your defence now, but do so later, what you later say will have less value.

The UK version encourages you to speak, the US version encourages you to remain silent
 
Wrong.

Under the Terrorism Act of 2000, it is illegal to display symbols associated with banned terrorist organizations. This law applies if there is reasonable suspicion that the person waving the flag is a member or supporter of Hamas. Metropolitan Police have confirmed that anyone displaying a Hamas flag will be arrested.

Hamas became a banned terrorist group in 2021.

"3 Uniform [F1and publication of images]
(1)A person in a public place commits an offence if he—
(a)wears an item of clothing, or
(b)wears, carries or displays an article,
in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. "

It is not enough to merely display the symbol, there needs to cause to believe that the display is a sign of support. I could wear a t-shirt with the Hamas flag on it, with a cross through the flag and the slogan, Ban Terrorists and I would not be breaking the law.
 
Isn't that a good thing?
Nope. The UK version smacks of cops trying to trick you into saying something they can use against you later. The best bet is to say nothing - exercise your right to remain silent until you can talk to a lawyer. Give the cops NOTHING.

When you look at the history of miscarriages of justice, a common theme is the accused not shutting up, and cops tricking them into making statements.

I have related this story before, on this forum so I will repost it verbatim from my previous post

Many years ago, I was questioned about an assault on my ex-girlfriend (I had a rock solid alibi; it happened in Christchurch and I was in Australia at the time).

The Police came to my work place and wanted me to accompany them to the Police station. They didn't tell me why, and I know my rights so I said no. One of the two cops said something like "being uncooperative won't help you". I said, something like "I know my rights. If you want me to come with you, you will have to arrest me. Are you arresting me?". They didn't answer immediately, but then the other cop said something like "Why not. If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" and I remember exactly what I said next. I laughed and said "I have three words for you... Arthur, Allan, Thomas" (the reader may have to look that one up). I could see the pair of them were not happy with that response, so I quickly said words to the effect that "If you want to interview me, I am happy for you to do so at my home, with my solicitor present". With that, they left and later we arranged the interview over the phone.

Once they realised that my alibi was sound they lost interest in me.

My advice to anyone who gets involved as a suspect or a person of interest with the Police is that

1. You do not have to answer any of their questions
2. You do not have to go with them unless they arrest you

Many police do not have your best interests at heart!
 
And it's worth pointing out again that British police, unlike their US counterparts are not permitted to make false statements to suspects in order to obtain a confession.
 
Nope. The UK version smacks of cops trying to trick you into saying something they can use against you later. The best bet is to say nothing - exercise your right to remain silent until you can talk to a lawyer. Give the cops NOTHING.

When you look at the history of miscarriages of justice, a common theme is the accused not shutting up, and cops tricking them into making statements.

I have related this story before, on this forum so I will repost it verbatim from my previous post



Many police do not have your best interests at heart!
That doesn't sound like it was UK police?

Are you aware our police use PEACE for interviews?
 
And it's worth pointing out again that British police, unlike their US counterparts are not permitted to make false statements to suspects in order to obtain a confession.
For once this is something the police can't do behind closed doors (or closed ranks) all interviews are recorded, these days that means video recording.

And yes we have major issue with the police, but that doesn't have anything to do with the caution wording.
 
For once this is something the police can't do behind closed doors (or closed ranks) all interviews are recorded, these days that means video recording.

And yes we have major issue with the police, but that doesn't have anything to do with the caution wording.
No, audio recording is the main method.
 
That's not quite the same thing, we're not talking about saying nothing then springing a surprise alibi at the trial, I'm not actually sure if that would be allowed or not, if nothing else contempt of court, wasting police time and obstruction of justice might come into play. It's more that if you stay silent when arrested, are released on bail the next day then contact the police with alibis once you've had a chance to speak to them and explain exactly where you all spent you're inconfirmable period of interest together in front of no independent witnesses the prosecution is allowed to point out that you failed to provide this exonerating evidence at such a time as they could have contacted the witnesses to confirm it before there was time for collusion. Incidentally British police aren't allowed to lie, such as telling you they've checked your alibi and been told it's fake or saying a co-defendant has confessed or implicated you when they haven't.
Yeah, I get that. What I wasn't getting was the assertions about what the US does in civil trials and what prosecution can't do in criminal trials. Both were way off.
 
Yeah, I get that. What I wasn't getting was the assertions about what the US does in civil trials and what prosecution can't do in criminal trials. Both were way off.
No I wasn't. Your 5th amendment doesn't apply to civil cases, so if you don't answer questions if you are called as a witness the prosecution can use that against you, and in criminal cases where the 5th amendment applies they can't. (The judge will more than likely make that point as part of their jury directions.)
 
No I wasn't. Your 5th amendment doesn't apply to civil cases, so if you don't answer questions if you are called as a witness the prosecution can use that against you, and in criminal cases where the 5th amendment applies they can't. (The judge will more than likely make that point as part of their jury directions.)
...we weren't talking about the 5th amendment. We were talking about not disclosing an alibi early on that you rely on later. If you relied on it later, you were not invoking the 5th amendment at all.
 
Even when what you say and believe is dehumanising and degrading?
Yes. Several posters here say and believe things that I view as dehumanizing and degrading. I will absolutely argue with them about their views, but they should have every right to express those beliefs.
Even when what you say and believe is that certain kinds of people are subhuman and do not deserve human rights?
Yes. I see people on the internet and even occasionally in real life expressing such sentiments fairly regularly. I see muslims saying that females don't deserve human rights with abandon. I think their views are crap, and I think those views should be argued against at every opportunity. But people should still have the right to express those views.
Even when what you say and believe is that certain kinds of people can and should be killed indiscriminately?
That gets a bit trickier. There is a distinction between expressing a belief and advocating or calling for an action... but it's not always a bright line. I've seen tons of people quite happily opining on which celebrities or public figures should be assassinated, as well as calling for females who believe in biology to be punched, raped, knifed, beaten, and decapitated. I've also seen people express the sentiment that some crimes absolutely should merit execution as punishment. I've seen people argue that the death penalty should be used more freely, and I've seen people express that infidels should be killed indiscriminately. Some of those I see as attempts to incite violence, others I see as absolutely abhorrent beliefs but NOT as active attempts to cause harm to others. '

It can be extremely difficult, and highly subjective, to figure out where that line should be drawn.
No. There are reasonable limits to free speech.
Yes there are: incitement to violence or criminal activity. There are also some types of speech which should not be limited but which may incur penalties, such as libel, slander, and defamation.
 
For once this is something the police can't do behind closed doors (or closed ranks) all interviews are recorded, these days that means video recording.
Interviews in the home are recorded only if the officer has his bodycam turned on, or if the interviewee chooses to record them.
 
Then perhaps you should have asked about the flags of those groups. The Palestinian flag predates those groups and their symbols by a considerable margin. The Nazi flag, on the other hand, originated with the Nazi party and was a symbol of their genocidal policies.
The flag of Palestine dates back to 1964 according to the interwebs. Muslim-governed lands have been engaged in waging a global jihad against infidel nations since the founding of the religion itself. Expansion of Islamic territory by force is an doctrine of the religion itself.
 
There's a difference between offensive/annoying and dehumanising/degrading.
Not really. There are a lot of things that you and other posters here have said that I view as being dehumanizing and degrading... but that you and those others seem to think aren't anywhere near offensive or insulting. It lies solely in the eyes of the beholder.
 
Nazis: "Ve vant to kill ze Jews and gays".

Free Speech advocates: "I nobly defend your right to say so"

*nazis kill Jews and gays*

Free Speech advocates: "hey, ho, how'd we get here? Kill the nazis!"
:unsure:

Fundamentalist Muslims: We want to subordinate females and keep them as property

Free Religion Advocates: I defend your right to believe whatever stupid ◊◊◊◊ you want to believe.

*Fundy muslims force females into burkas and stone them to death for showing their hair, deprive them of schooling and medical assistance and the ability to communicate with other females in public*

Free Religion Advocates: "Hey, how the heck did this happen?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What is missing in both your scenario and mine is the extraordinarily important clause that should be present at the end of the Freedom Advocate's statement:

Free Speech Advocates: I nobly defend your right to say so, but I deny you the ability to act on that speech.
Free Religion Advocates: I defend your right to believe whatever stupid ◊◊◊◊ you want to believe, but I deny you the ability to act on those beliefs.
 
No, look. I'm sick and tired of hate speech being infantilised as "hurty words". We're not talking about people being mildly offended by someone saying that their hairstyle is ugly. We're talking about peoples' right to exist, and other people arguing that they shouldn't have it. There's a world of difference.
I disagree with your perspective on this. A whole lot of things get framed as "hate speech" that 1) don't involve any hate and 2) in no way whatsoever suggest that the other person shouldn't have the right to exist and 3) absolutely do not incite or advocate for violence.

For example... There's an entire thread that you've categorically decided is full to the brim of hate speech and bigotry despite the fact that you have never bothered to actually take part in the discussion nor have to considered the actual arguments being put forth. You've accepted a singular social narrative that grants special privileges to a small set of people on the basis of their declaration even though those privileges deprive half the population of their rights, safety, and dignity... and you've decided that the people who would like to retain their existing rights are engaging in hate speech.
 

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