General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Supposedly, Trump's direct involvement in the Board of Peace (BOP) comes at the request of Hamas negotiators, who rightfully reason that he wouldn't want to be associated with a complete failure and selling-out to Netanyahu, and will thus use his weight to make something happen that will get him the seal of approval of Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
 
arthwollipot said:
On the one hand, I want the slaughter and starvation to end.

On the other hand, I don't want Lord Dampnut to be able to take credit for it.
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Cheer up, this deal wouldn't end the slaughter and and starvation, even if Israel agreed to it.

Behind all the aspirational bullet points Herc listed, this deal is basically a fringe reset of Gaza as an unregulated base for anti-Israeli terrorist groups to establish themselves.

As soon as Israel withdraws, and Palestinians are able to travel freely in and out of Gaza, Hamas starts the whole cycle all over again. This deal calls for Israel to give up hard-won safety and security in exchange for empty promises.

Unless Herc left out the part where Israel is given credible guarantees of enforcement, by some trustworthy power, I don't see it doing anything besides give Hamas and its ilk breathing room to regroup and re-arm.
 
theprestige said:
Cheer up, this deal wouldn't end the slaughter and and starvation, even if Israel agreed to it.

Behind all the aspirational bullet points Herc listed, this deal is basically a fringe reset of Gaza as an unregulated base for anti-Israeli terrorist groups to establish themselves.

As soon as Israel withdraws, and Palestinians are able to travel freely in and out of Gaza, Hamas starts the whole cycle all over again. This deal calls for Israel to give up hard-won safety and security in exchange for empty promises.

Unless Herc left out the part where Israel is given credible guarantees of enforcement, by some trustworthy power, I don't see it doing anything besides give Hamas and its ilk breathing room to regroup and re-arm.
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How will they rearm?
 
Hercules56 said:
How will they rearm?
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Shipments of arms and materiel from Iran through intermediaries, same way they've rearmed in the past. Giving Palestinians freedom to pass in and out of Gaza pretty much guarantees it gets reestablished as a terrorist base of operations. History has shown that an open Gaza is an armed Gaza, and an armed Gaza is a terrorist Gaza. There cannot be peace in Gaza without robust security guarantees, and a credible pledge of peaceful protest from Palestinians. Anything less ensures Hamas or its successors will launch another 10/7, at the soonest opportunity.
 
theprestige said:
Shipments of arms and materiel from Iran through intermediaries, same way they've rearmed in the past. Giving Palestinians freedom to pass in and out of Gaza pretty much guarantees it gets reestablished as a terrorist base of operations. History has shown that an open Gaza is an armed Gaza, and an armed Gaza is a terrorist Gaza. There cannot be peace in Gaza without robust security guarantees, and a credible pledge of peaceful protest from Palestinians. Anything less ensures Hamas or its successors will launch another 10/7, at the soonest opportunity.
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So you think Trump created a peace plan that is dangerous to Israel? Why would he do that? Does he hate Jews?
 
Hercules56 said:
So you think Trump created a peace plan that is dangerous to Israel? Why would he do that? Does he hate Jews?
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Same reason he created a peace plan that is dangerous to Ukraine. He's more interested in results he can take credit for, than in results that actually do him any credit.

Why do you endorse peace plans that include an open-border Gaza? You know what Hamas and its ilk do, when Gaza has even a hint of open borders.
 
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Donald Trump created nothing. From what we're seeing about this "BOP" , it's really Kushner who knows the path to Palestine Peace leads through Riyadh. In fact, everyone knows this. The 20-points are window-dressing to get 48 hostages freed, and for Israel to 'unload' about 2000 prisoners. Maybe more! I can see them even giving up to 5000 detainees back, just for good measure.

As for the question of disarmament, we already see what limited success Lebanon is having with the Hezbollah.
Well, we're seeing UNIFIL get disbanded, which is long overdue, and it's only the IDF really keeping the lid on there.
(Likewise with Syria, it seems, as UN Forces 'monitoring' across the Golan have done diddly-squat for decades.)

And the expectation is for Israel to permit yet another feeble "International Force" to manage security in Gaza?
I'm gob-smacked at the suggestion!

Also, in N.Sinai, the Bedouins are scrambling to keep up their lucrative smuggling ops.
www.jpost.com

Drugs, guns smuggled from Sinai present threat to Israel | The Jerusalem Post

Ibrahim Al-Arjani, a billionaire from the Tarhabin Bedouin tribe, is largely responsible for gun and drug smuggling from Sinai into Israel.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
 
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arthwollipot said:
You're looking for a word for a worse crime than genocide???
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That's correct.
When "the gloves come off" (as Hercules56 says will occur if HAMAS refuses the 20-point BOP) then the level of violence must, by definition, increase beyond the so-claimed genocide that's already occured. What is that called?
More than genocide?
 
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POTUS is setting the clock for Yom Kippur to conclude and his ask is for HAMAS to offer their reply by the coming weekend, at the latest date.

www.yahoo.com

Gazans say Trump's peace plan a 'farce'

Residents of war-torn Gaza expressed scepticism over the latest peace plan unveiled Monday by US President Donald Trump, dismissing it as a farce that fails to end the war.The residents spoke shortly after Trump unveiled his 20-point plan aimed at ending the war and to which Israeli Prime...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

What is the word "farce" in Arabic?
"مهزلة"
 
webfusion said:
That's correct.
When "the gloves come off" (as Hercules56 says will occur if HAMAS refuses the 20-point BOP) then the level of violence must, by definition, increase beyond the so-claimed genocide that's already occured. What is that called?
More than genocide?
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Its called Israel deserving and earning a couple nukes.
 
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Netanyahu is so far onboard because he is certain that he can derail the plan and then continue his genocide. There is no independent mechanism to check whether Hamas or Israel are keeping to the deal, and what to do if they don't.
Assuming that this will happen (simply to give the Palestinians the aid they need to not all die), Israel will find quickly an excuse to call it null and void.
Of course, more likely is that Bibi won't get the deal past his coalition partners. He might take the opportunity to call for new elections and bank on a more moderate Coalition for him to lead that will let him do the deal.
Let us all keep in mind why the Gaza conflict had to last this long: to keep Netanyahu in power.
 
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Hercules56 said:
They will accept this one.
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Ostensibly, their answer can be: 'Sure, uh, why not..." and then HAMAS manages to 'lose' half the bodies they're holding.

The devil's in the details.
And PIJ is one of the devils.

Hercules56 said:
Cuz if they don't, all bets are off, all gloves are off.
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This is a reference to Israel taking 'the gloves off' when the deal collapses due to HAMAS perfidy.

So, this led me to wonder how a 'gloves off" approach can be classified, is it beyond a genocide? What's a word for that? Maybe one requires inventing to fit those circumstances, as Israel proceeds further against HAMAS (and Gaza, more generally).

A couple of nukes? OK, that seems more like something Israel will be detonating over Gaza (small-yield battlefield munitions to clear up the remaining debris & structures that's still standing, in limited areas already devoid of habitation); not that anyone else will be delivering nuclear bombs over Jerusalem & al-Aqsa.

Who are YOU betting on here, Hercules56? Just wondering...
 
arthwollipot said:
mondoweiss.net

Gaza Genocide deniers are no different from Holocaust deniers, except that their denial abets the genocide itself

The denial of the Gaza genocide has been echoed from the mainstream media to the White House. While reminiscent of Holocaust denial, today’s denials have deadly consequences as they are used to justify the very genocide deniers claim isn’t happening.
mondoweiss.net mondoweiss.net
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"mondoweiss.net"

All you've done is find people who share your opinion. You could have found an equally compelling authority without ever leaving this forum.
 
arthwollipot said:
mondoweiss.net

Gaza Genocide deniers are no different from Holocaust deniers, except that their denial abets the genocide itself

The denial of the Gaza genocide has been echoed from the mainstream media to the White House. While reminiscent of Holocaust denial, today’s denials have deadly consequences as they are used to justify the very genocide deniers claim isn’t happening.
mondoweiss.net mondoweiss.net
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You are posting an anti-Zionist source, and you lecture others about accepting propaganda?
 
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