Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

[Nessie]

All of these arrests appear on their face to be insane and ridiculous, unless you believe free speech has no value.

When did Britain lose their way?

Or, have they always been this way?

Britain lost its way, when vague hate speech laws were introduced by Parliament, that some people then weaponised by making spurious complaints, to get others arrested, by police who acted with little common sense, on laws they had little guidance on, as the courts had not made clear decisions as to what was a crime and what was not. The situation has been made worse by journalists and social media commentators misreporting many of the arrests and convictions, for clickbait, to make money for themselves.

 

[Nessie]

Mearly marching, without making threats of violence, is not a provocation.

If the mere presense of a swastika flag equals violent threat, what else qualifies?

Palestinian flag? Flag of the Soviet Union?

Where does it end?

You clearly know nothing about Northern Ireland and The Troubles, where Republicans and Nationalists constantly sought to march through each other's areas, to provoke each other. They would both claim to be the peaceful side, who were then subjected to unprovoked attacks. The flying of the Irish flag, or Red Hand of Ulster flag, in another side's area, was designed to provoke. Even through Northern Ireland has the lowest numbers of immigrants, it has experienced a lot of violence relating to migration over the past while.

If an anti-immigration, right wing, racist group wanted to march through an area full of immigrants, violent, territorial, aggressive males, will see that as a threat, a challenge to them and that type of person reacts violently.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

You clearly know nothing about Northern Ireland and The Troubles, where Republicans and Nationalists constantly sought to march through each other's areas, to provoke each other. They would both claim to be the peaceful side, who were then subjected to unprovoked attacks. The flying of the Irish flag, or Red Hand of Ulster flag, in another side's area, was designed to provoke. Even through Northern Ireland has the lowest numbers of immigrants, it has experienced a lot of violence relating to migration over the past while.

If an anti-immigration, right wing, racist group wanted to march through an area full of immigrants, violent, territorial, aggressive males, will see that as a threat, a challenge to them and that type of person reacts violently.

I deliberately avoided mention of the Six Counties and marching season or the equivalent in Glasgow.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

All of these arrests appear on their face to be insane and ridiculous, unless you believe free speech has no value.

When did Britain lose their way?

Or, have they always been this way?

As pointed out earlier, some of those stories are not as presented: some are just plain inaccurate, some are skewed, and it is not clear that some happened at all.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Mearly marching, without making threats of violence, is not a provocation.

If the mere presense of a swastika flag equals violent threat, what else qualifies?

Palestinian flag? Flag of the Soviet Union?

Where does it end?

You can march and wave your flags in many different places to exercise freedom of speech.

Being Nazi and visibly Nazi in a Jewish area (or BNP in an area full of folk of sub-continental or Caribbean origins) has gone well beyond that, as part of your raison d'etre is anti-semitism (or being anti-immigrants of a brown or black skin colour for the BNP).

Some of us saw too much of that sort of BS in the late '70s and early '80s and know about how Moseley and his crew operated in the '30s.

 

[Hercules56]

You can march and wave your flags in many different places to exercise freedom of speech.

Being Nazi and visibly Nazi in a Jewish area (or BNP in an area full of folk of sub-continental or Caribbean origins) has gone well beyond that, as part of your raison d'etre is anti-semitism (or being anti-immigrants of a brown or black skin colour for the BNP).

Some of us saw too much of that sort of BS in the late '70s and early '80s and know about how Moseley and his crew operated in the '30s.

I dont see the difference between Nazis marching in a Jewish neighborhood and Nazis marching in the Sahara desert, other than the fact that the first scenario hurts peoples feelings and is offensive. Is that enough of a reason to criminalize speech??

I am personally offended by some of the behavior at LBGTQ parades, should I therefore call the cops on them?

 

[Pixel42]

I guess it all depends which right you think should take priority: the right to spew hatred, or the right to live a peaceful and law abiding life without being constantly threatened and intimidated.

 

[Hercules56]

I guess it all depends which right you think should take priority: the right to spew hatred, or the right to live a peaceful and law abiding life without being constantly threatened and intimidated.

There is no "right" to live in a world without fear and intimidation and bigotry.

Part of living in a free society means on occasion you will hear and see things that you find offensive and hurtful, but we move on like big boys and girls.

 

[Nessie]

I dont see the difference between Nazis marching in a Jewish neighborhood and Nazis marching in the Sahara desert, other than the fact that the first scenario hurts peoples feelings and is offensive. Is that enough of a reason to criminalize speech??

I am personally offended by some of the behavior at LBGTQ parades, should I therefore call the cops on them?

I see the difference between a march designed to intimidate, establish control over an area and politically influence, than one that has no chance of that happening. You seem naive, as if you do not realise there are people who see aggression and fear as a way to achieve their aims. There are also politicians, who seek power and support, through those people. Hitler and the Nazis are a very good example of that. If they had only marched through unpopulated countryside, rather than areas with many Jews, they would have struggled to achieve their objectives.

The issue is that some people would call the police and as it stands, the police are duty bound to investigate. Maybe the police should act over such complaints, as they have done with some other crimes, such as refusing to attend shoplifting of small value items.

 

[Nessie]

There is no "right" to live in a world without fear and intimidation and bigotry.

Part of living in a free society means on occasion you will hear and see things that you find offensive and hurtful, but we move on like big boys and girls.

You do have the right to live in peace with life, liberty and security of your person, with no distinction based on your background, sex etc.

You do have to tolerate the offensive and hurtful.

 

[Helen]

Nazis demonstrating outside a synagogue, or racists burning the quran outside a mosque are provocations; allow them the freedom to demonstrate, the freedom to speak, by all means, but let them do it elsewhere. Your freedom of speech does not allow you to say what you want wherever you want to say it.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

I dont see the difference between Nazis marching in a Jewish neighborhood and Nazis marching in the Sahara desert, other than the fact that the first scenario hurts peoples feelings and is offensive. Is that enough of a reason to criminalize speech??

I am personally offended by some of the behavior at LBGTQ parades, should I therefore call the cops on them?

If you can't see how one of those is different from the other, i.e. one has gone beyond saying nasty things, then I can't help you.

 

[Hercules56]

Nazis demonstrating outside a synagogue, or racists burning the quran outside a mosque are provocations; allow them the freedom to demonstrate, the freedom to speak, by all means, but let them do it elsewhere. Your freedom of speech does not allow you to say what you want wherever you want to say it.

Do we also ban pro-palestine protestors from being outside all synagogues, jewish neighborhoods, jewish-owned stores, israeli govt buildings, israeli own companies?

Who gets to decide what qualifies as an offensive provocation?

What if I find a pro-trans march, or a pro-Muslim march offensive?

 

[Hercules56]

If you can't see how one of those is different from the other, i.e. one has gone beyond saying nasty things, then I can't help you.

Never asked for your "help".

 

[Helen]

In Sweden, at least, you need permission from the police for planned demonstrations. If they think the spot you want is not suitable, they will direct you elsewhere. It very rarely happens, but burning the quran, which we had a spate of a year or so ago, was not allowed outside a mosque. Another place for the idiotic pursuit was suggested, but somehow the person who wanted a book burning wasn't interested in doing it elsewhere.

 

[Thermal]

I dont see the difference between Nazis marching in a Jewish neighborhood and Nazis marching in the Sahara desert, other than the fact that the first scenario hurts peoples feelings and is offensive. Is that enough of a reason to criminalize speech??

Skokie wasn't just a 'Jewish neighborhood'. There were many Holocost survivors there. Nazis marching through that particular neighborhood would be taken by a normal person to be intimidation and a naked threat. At the very least, by today's standards, it is a form of assault when you try to cause another distress and fear.

I am personally offended by some of the behavior at LBGTQ parades, should I therefore call the cops on them?

Do they threaten you? Make you relive a trauma and let you know that those who tortured you are alive again in your streets? Really?

We are not talking about 'being offensive'. We are talking about the threat of violence, when the same ideology that gassed your family is in front of your home.

 

[Hercules56]

Skokie wasn't just a 'Jewish neighborhood'. There were many Holocost survivors there. Nazis marching through that particular neighborhood would be taken by a normal person to be intimidation and a naked threat. At the very least, by today's standards, it is a form of assault when you try to cause another distress and fear.

Do they threaten you? Make you relive a trauma and let you know that those who tortured you are alive again in your streets? Really?

We are not talking about 'being offensive'. We are talking about the threat of violence, when the same ideology that gassed your family is in front of your home.

Is the mere display of the swastika a direct and immediate threat of violence? What about the flag of Palestine? what about the flag of the USSR?

The Nazis and Soviets both persecuted and killed members of my family, do I therefore get to call the cops when someone waves such a flag near me?

 

[Hercules56]

Skokie wasn't just a 'Jewish neighborhood'. There were many Holocost survivors there. Nazis marching through that particular neighborhood would be taken by a normal person to be intimidation and a naked threat. At the very least, by today's standards, it is a form of assault when you try to cause another distress and fear...

Wow, ◊◊◊◊ in UK really has gone wacky.

Waving a swastika flag counts as an actual "assault"????

Jeez.

 

[Thermal]

Is the mere display of the swastika a direct and immediate threat of violence?

Read harder. I didn't say 'immediate' for a reason. Intentionally and substantially rewording an argument for rhetorical benefit is considered profoundly dishonest.

What about the flag of Palestine? what about the flag of the USSR?

The Nazis and Soviets both persecuted and killed members of my family, do I therefore get to call the cops when someone waves such a flag near me?

Nazis are active threats, and the swastika has taken on more specific meanings than the symbol of a wider political party or nation. And you know this.

 

[catsmate]

Of course not. Speech calling for or threatening immediate violence is illegal. Child porn is illegal. Everything else is or should be legal, including offensive bigoted hate speech.

Meanwhile, those of us living in the Real World, as opposed to fantasy land understand thing a little better;

Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But then understanding for one's self is more difficult than unthinking sloganeering.