The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

According to the Royal Meteorological Society:

The Beaufort Scale is an empirical measure that relates wind speed to observed conditions at sea or on land. Its full name is the Beaufort wind force scale.​
​
Below is a table showing the Beaufort Scale with speeds in knots, miles per hour and kilometres per hour.​

I highlighted one of those words. The link for "wind speed" is in the original.
 
Vixen said:
Once again, for avoidance of doubt, the '18 knots' reference was in a post BEFORE another poster asked for clarification. Being helpful I added a JAIC diagram, which because unfortunately it didn't include all the knots from 1 - 18 but only the one where the bow visor fell off (S=14) people were up in arms because it didn't say 'S=18', as if I had the clairvoyant power to know I was going to be producing that diagram later for a different poster and had somehow cheated them of their "S=18 knots".
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It's really too bad you didn't have the clairvoyant power to anticipate that your readers would not have the clairvoyant power to see where your figure of '15-18 knots' appears on the diagram that, according to you, clearly states that figure.
 
Vixen said:
I am not interested in 'personalities' stuff. I couldn't give a toss about Alex Jones and his theories. AIUI he is some kind of 'influencer' type bod. Nobody is interested in that stuff.
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Don't be deliberately obtuse. This has nothing to do with Jones's "personality." It has everything to do with your BS claim that you're just discussing "current events" and that that somehow means you're not promoting conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Estonia.

Now, I'll rephase slightly. Does the fact that the September 11 attacks were a current event somehow mean that Jones wasn't pushing conspiracy theories?
 
Vixen said:
I have no idea what any of those topics has to do with this one. Each topic has to be judged on its own individual merits.
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We're not talking about the merits of the topics. We're talking about how you're happy to allow criticism of the JAIC report by the German group of experts, and to tout their credentials, even though they were set up by the builders of the Estonia, who had a vested interest in disproving any defects in design or construction. Yet you reject out of hand any criticism of the evidence against Knox, no matter how eminently qualified the critic, claiming that he must be corrupt, biased, or, if all else fails, "an ivory-tower intellectual." How is that not rank hypocrisy, Vixen?
 
W.D.Clinger said:
It's really too bad you didn't have the clairvoyant power to anticipate that your readers would not have the clairvoyant power to see where your figure of '15-18 knots' appears on the diagram that, according to you, clearly states that figure.
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I thought I had the power to anticipate powers of deduction but alas, it was a hopeless cause.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Don't be deliberately obtuse. This has nothing to do with Jones's "personality." It has everything to do with your BS claim that you're just discussing "current events" and that that somehow means you're not promoting conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Estonia.

Now, I'll rephase slightly. Does the fact that the September 11 attacks were a current event somehow mean that Jones wasn't pushing conspiracy theories?
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Whataboutism is one of my pet hate logical fallacies. It is utterly pointless and is simply 'changing the subject'.
 
Vixen said:
The JAIC Report has this to say in Chapter 13.3 Action on the Bridge:


We have no idea how Captain Andresson lost control and I guess they simply had to improvise as best they could.
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We do know how Anderson lost control. The bow visor fell off wrenching open the car ramp, since there was no warning light for this kind of thing the bridge was unaware, and continued sailing into the wind, and the ship filled with water until it sank.
 
SpitfireIX said:
We're not talking about the merits of the topics. We're talking about how you're happy to allow criticism of the JAIC report by the German group of experts, and to tout their credentials, even though they were set up by the builders of the Estonia, who had a vested interest in disproving any defects in design or construction. Yet you reject out of hand any criticism of the evidence against Knox, no matter how eminently qualified the critic, claiming that he must be corrupt, biased, or, if all else fails, "an ivory-tower intellectual." How is that not rank hypocrisy, Vixen?
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It is not 'rejecting out of hand', it was objectively weighing up the issues.
 
W.D.Clinger said:
It's really too bad you didn't have the clairvoyant power to anticipate that your readers would not have the clairvoyant power to see where your figure of '15-18 knots' appears on the diagram that, according to you, clearly states that figure.
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Vixen said:
I thought I had the power to anticipate powers of deduction but alas, it was a hopeless cause.
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You anticipated that your readers would deduce that 14 knots lies within the range of 15-18 knots, because your very own exalted knowledge of mathematics led you to deduce that.

It turned out, however, that few of your readers possess such powers of deduction. That is a good thing.
 
Vixen said:
The Captain of Estonia, Andresson, was trained in the then Leningrad naval acadamy and was well-experienced. He was also authoritarian in the Soviet way (albeit being an Estonian) so whilst his crew might have feared drawing trouble to his attention, we don't actually have any idea what happened on the bridge, other than they had little to no time to react.
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The sea floor is littered with the wrecks of the most experienced ship captains.

Experienced captains often take risks less experienced captains do.
 
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Here_to_learn said:
But 'open sea' is not about depth. It about lack of the protection from wind factors compared to coastal waters.
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Way back in the first thread on this subject I looked at the bathymetry of the region where MS Estonia sailed and sank. The sea floor has what amounts to rolling hills, and in the right combination of wind, fetch, and tides that, wile not huge, can generate force. In a standard ship design it makes for rough sailing, but for MS Estonia it was asking for trouble. All they had to do was cut speed, or better yet, wait for conditions to improve before sailing.

MS Estonia had only sailed through one other storm prior to her sinking.
 
Vixen said:
Whataboutism is one of my pet hate logical fallacies. It is utterly pointless and is simply 'changing the subject'.
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There's no "whataboutism." There's just your fallacious claim that you're somehow not pushing conspiracy theories because the subject is supposedly a current news item. I gave you a clear example of how a topic's being a current news story doesn't immunize it from being the subject of conspiracy theories, and now you're dishonestly trying to pretend that I haven't shown that because you still don't want to admit that you're pushing conspiracy theories.
 
W.D.Clinger said:
<polite snip>
I should ask my pilot friend whether he's ever heard of anyone stating a wind speed in knots.
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It would be more relevant to ask a boating friend. I can help.

In the US the gov meteorological site NOAA uses knots.
In the UK shipping forecast they use the Beaufort Scale. More useful as it describes sea state; wind, waves, swell etc.
In Germany, the Beaufort Scale is used . Despite being a metric country (wind in knots on the B.Scale)
in Sweden m/s is used, but Vixen’s argument that it is because “we are metric” is a moot as,
In Australia (metric) the marine forecast is still in knots. Sea state (wave height, swell, visibility) are metric

Oh, to save confusion, these are marine forecast units , e.g., daily weather forecasts for landlubbers in Australia use km/h

I lost interest after this
 
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