The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
As is outlined by AI overview:

"
AI Overview



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"Forward of the bow" is nautical terminology meaning in front of the bow, toward the direction the vessel is moving. The term "bow" refers to the entire front section of the ship.
The specific part of the bow that extends furthest forward is called the stem. "[ends]

Notandum: corrected in my post for the precise term, 'forward of the bow'.
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Hmm. Did you just add
this text and pretended it was part of the Google AI answer?

Because if Google AI really did post this utter contradictory answer, it goes to show how unreliable and "coachable" Google AI really is. On the other hand, if you added it yourself, it confirms what we already know about your posts.
 
By coincidence, I was just watching the new Drachinifel video on The US Third Fleet in WW2 and the damage done to it by Typhoon Connie.

USS Pittsburgh lost it's entire bow forward of A Turret due to the pounding effect of the waves.
It didn't flood and sink for several reasons. First because it was completely 'closed down' with all hatches and openings secure and second, the captain reacted quickly turning the stern to the waves while damage control crews shored the bulkheads that were exposed to the sea. It then 'hove to' and rode out the worst of the storm before making for port.

Had the captain of the Estonia realised what was happening and turned his ship either before or immediately after losing the bow the outcome may have been different.
In the same storm two aircraft carriers had their flight decks smashed down in to the hull by the weight of water and pounding of the waves.

Pictures are from after a temporary patch had been put over the opening to allow it to sail back to Hawaii for repairs.

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zooterkin said:
Where does it say 15-18 knots on your diagram? Stick to the scenario.
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It's called inference. It is obvious if S=speed then the term next to the symbol 'S' refers to speed. Thus if speed at a key spot reads '14' as it does where the visor is estimated to have broken off, means it is within the same parameters of any speed within that range give or take a knot or two, given they are only estimates anyway.

As an illustration: Person A says, 'the vessel sank because it was an almighty tempest and it was going too fast'. Now, it has already been established that experts believed it was travelling at a top speed of 18 knots that night, and that maximum wind was 24/25 m/s.

Person B, in the debate, counters, 'But the windspeed was [only = the implication being it was not all that stormy-tempests-of-stormy-stormy tempests] 18 m/s. [At speed] 18 knots'.

So Person A has no figures at hand or feint recollection of the situation as of the time the boat sank, so a diagram was provided - after the above was written, in another post to another poster - showing the wind speed was SW at 18 m/s as Person B stated, albeit the diagram showing a figure of 'S = 14' as of the spot the visor dropped. There was no requirement to find a diagram that spelt out 'S=18' in large because it is assumed Person A has followed the conversation and is perfectly well aware 18 knots refers to MV Estonia's alleged top speed that night. I am pretty confident that that poster knew perfectly well 18 knots referred to MV Estonia's alleged speed and was attempting churlishness, rather than genuine bewilderment.

Between 2215 and 2245 hrs (approximate) the ESTONIA was plotted by a meeting vessel, the AMBER and according to Amber's plot, the speed was then about 18.5 knots. The speed of the SILJA EUROPA was at this point 18.8 knots and further decreased to 17.6 knots between Russarö lighthouse and the Apollo buoy. After passing Osmussaar lighthouse the ESTONIA lost her land shelter and the sea conditions deteriorated. Based on experience it is believed that the sea conditions were slightly worse in the area where the SILJA EUROPA was sailing. At about 2255 hrs the Apollo buoy was abeam and the ESTONIA's speed is estimated to have been close to 17 knots. The ESTONIA passed the Glotov buoy at about 2355 hrs and, by comparing with the SILJA EUROPA, it can be assumed that her speed was now about 15 knots. This estimate is also confirmed by the trainee second officer, who has stated that the speed was between 14 and 15 knots, as well as by the third engineer who has stated that the speed was 15 knots when he started his watch in the engine control room at midnight. During the first thirty minutes after midnight the average speed of the SILJA EUROPA dropped by about one knot. When the ESTONIA reached the waypoint at 59° 20 N, 22° 00 E between 0025 and 0030 hrs, her true course was changed from 262 to 287 and the stabilisers were extended. Her average speed was between 14 and 15 knots."

Bahnhof Fact Group
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Previously 3rd Fleet had been caught in Typhoon Cobra and three Destroyers were actually lost.

USS Hull, low on fuel and consequently excessive topweight was knocked down by the waves, flooded through machinery space ventilators and the funnels, capsized and sank with the loss of 202 crew members. There were 62 survivors.
USS Monaghan sank for the same reason resulting in the deaths of 256 sailors. Only six crew members survived.
USS Spence capsized and sank after its rudder became jammed because of the pounding from the sea and it broached broadside to the waves. 317 men drowned, and there were only 23 survivors.
 
LondonJohn said:
Hmm. Did you just add
this text and pretended it was part of the Google AI answer?

Because if Google AI really did post this utter contradictory answer, it goes to show how unreliable and "coachable" Google AI really is. On the other hand, if you added it yourself, it confirms what we already know about your posts.
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If I state that is where the quote ends, that is where the quote ends. Don't judge me by your apparent standards that it even crosses your mind.
 
Vixen said:
It's called inference. It is obvious if S=speed then the term next to the symbol 'S' refers to speed. Thus if speed at a key spot reads '14' as it does where the visor is estimated to have broken off, means it is within the same parameters of any speed within that range give or take a knot or two, given they are only estimates anyway.
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Oh this is just getting pitiful now.
 
Vixen said:
If I state that is where the quote ends, that is where the quote ends. Don't judge me by your apparent standards that it even crosses your mind.
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I gave an either/or. And this therefore proves a gross incompetence in Google AI, if it is stating that the frontmost part of the bow is called the stern LMAO.

Oh and I assure you my standards are at least two standard deviations higher.
 
Mojo said:
How did you access the "AI overviews" you quoted?
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AFAIAC I thought the AI overview (which was clearly labelled thus) gave a perfectly good summing up of simple issues such as what is conning and what does V22 say. I even provided the link to the full 61-page pdf to anyone who wanted to download such a document.
 
Vixen said:
AFAIAC I thought the AI overview (which was clearly labelled thus) gave a perfectly good summing up of simple issues such as what is conning and what does V22 say. I even provided the link to the full 61-page pdf to anyone who wanted to download such a document.
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How did you access it? What AI did you use, and what prompts did you give it?
 
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