The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[junkshop]

Citation?

Click the link.

 

[Vixen]

because it fell off completely, the ramp is open, we can see the pictures of it.

WHEN did it come off, as two Estonian guys who survived said they climbed down the car ramp door. They are eye witnesses. Why ignore what they said?

 

[catsmate]

See upthread. He acknowledges the help of Valeria Kasper, an Estonian filmmaker, and speaking to six survivors personally.

That doesn't answer the question asked. You're evading again.

 

[catsmate]

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

Again, not what you were asked for, just another assertion.

 

[catsmate]

These are the six main survivors whose stories are told by Nelson.

Names? Details? Statements?

 

[Vixen]

Click the link.

As you can see, he was a well-respected journalist. There is no reason to believe he is a liar or making stuff up.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The claimed truck dumping was from the STERN car ramp, not the bow. However, because the JAIC theory is that the entire bow visor and car ramp door fell off, that was the initial action that commenced the disaster, thanks to a strong wave undermining the design. But nobody has claimed the cargo was offloaded at the front.

Claimed? Claimed by whom?

Do you have a citation for anyone claiming trucks were pushed out of the stern?

 

[catsmate]

Citation?

Oh good grief you lack even the most basic research skills, don't you @Vixen?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Citation?

The link he posted is an obituary.

 

[Andy_Ross]

WHEN did it come off, as two Estonian guys who survived said they climbed down the car ramp door. They are eye witnesses. Why ignore what they said?

The ramp didn't come off, it is in the open position.

Do you suppose it was opened after the ship sank?

 

[junkshop]

As you can see, he was a well-respected journalist. There is no reason to believe he is a liar or making stuff up.

There is also no reason to believe his unsupported claim that Voronin (a man he never met) weighed 245lbs at the time of the sinking. At best we can say that Nelson claimed that Voronin weighed 245lbs. It is not an established fact.

ETA: Given that Nelson's claim is the only source regarding Voronin's weight, any suspicion or incredulity about how unlikely it may or may not be that he managed to escape the sinking ship rises only to the level of speculation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

WHEN did it come off, as two Estonian guys who survived said they climbed down the car ramp door. They are eye witnesses. Why ignore what they said?

The ramp was still attached when the ship was on its side.

For them to climb onto the ramp from the hull of the ship, they must have done so near the hinge end as the shape of the hull would have left them high above the ramp further up. If the ramp had been firmly closed rather than flapping open they simply wouldn't have seen it from their vantage point on the hull.

 

[dorricc0]

<snip>. Maybe, as he taught or teaches at the same Uni as JayUtah, he can be contacted there and asked directly what his sources were.

Unlikely, as he's been dead for a decade .

Imagine being several hundred pages into making your case and not knowing that one of your key witnesses is dead.

 

[junkshop]

Imagine being several hundred pages into making your case and not knowing that one of your key witnesses is dead.

To be fair, I wasn't aware Nelson had died until I googled whether he still worked at the University or not. However, Voronin is dead, Nelson is dead, Anderson-Käspar is dead. Unless another source is found, the 'fact' of Voronin being in any way obese is entirely unverifiable.

edited for typo

 

[P.J. Denyer]

To be fair, I wasn't aware Nelson had died until I googled whether he still worked at the University or not. However, Voronin is dead, Nelson is dead, Anderson-Käspar is dead. Unless another source is found, the 'fact' of Voronin being in any way obese is entirely unverifiable.

edited for typo

All dead, huh? [Strokes Beard in conspiritorial manner]

 

[Vixen]

Imagine being several hundred pages into making your case and not knowing that one of your key witnesses is dead.

Nelson is not a key witness, he is simply a journalist who wrote a book telling the survivors' stories. It is not reasonable to claim he made stuff up. As a former Professor of journalism, he will know the importance of verifying information and accuracy.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Nelson is not a key witness, he is simply a journalist who wrote a book telling the survivors' stories. It is not reasonable to claim he made stuff up. As a former Professor of journalism, he will know the importance of verifying information and accuracy.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Do you have that citation for someone claiming trucks were pushed out of the stern doors?

 

[junkshop]

Not really all that relevant, but I find hard to reconcile this (from Brigham Young University's Y Magazine):

...On the Sweden trip Nelson and his wife, Patrice Salisbury Nelson (BA ’68), traveled the same overnight journey from Estonia on the sister ship of the one that sank, prowling the bowels of the ship to get a feel of the survivors’ experience...

With this (from Nelson's Google Books bio):

...He has been a paraplegic since the age of 17...

 

[junkshop]

Nelson is not a key witness, he is simply a journalist who wrote a book telling the survivors' stories. It is not reasonable to claim he made stuff up. As a former Professor of journalism, he will know the importance of verifying information and accuracy.

His book is the sole source for the claim of Voronin being 245lbs. The claim is unverifiable, and therefore unreliable.

The whole reason for this diversion (for me, at least) into the minutiae of a trivial detail is to demonstrate the poor quality of many of the sources that you choose to rely on.