Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

I think you might be missing what the expression means.
Another thing I could add to that earlier post of mine. Apparently, the noticing of bulges is either a NAZI thing or a Furry thing or both?

Regarding the civil discourse, I don't think its worth it really. When there's a number of these events where folks still remember the false speculation from earlier on rather than the more true stuff that is eventually discovered.
 
Wow. What a sharp, articulate young man. I have watched just a few of his Q&A sessions, but the one where a college student questioned his credentials and Kirk had to define autodidact was brilliant.

Charlie Kirk, on college and university campuses, was doing exactly what men like Dawkins and Shermer have been doing for decades.

Exactly.
 
Wow. What a sharp, articulate young man. I have watched just a few of his Q&A sessions, but the one where a college student questioned his credentials and Kirk had to define autodidact was brilliant.

Charlie Kirk, on college and university campuses, was doing exactly what men like Dawkins and Shermer have been doing for decades.

Exactly.
Right? It's a rare gift to speak to the heart of an audience that doesn't have one.
 
Wow. What a sharp, articulate young man. I have watched just a few of his Q&A sessions, but the one where a college student questioned his credentials and Kirk had to define autodidact was brilliant.

Charlie Kirk, on college and university campuses, was doing exactly what men like Dawkins and Shermer have been doing for decades.

Exactly.

Really? Dawkins and Shermer have been spreading hate and division with racist remarks for decades? I somehow missed that.

Kirk was very good in front of a crowd and had the skills to control the conversation but if you look at the videos where he actually encounters an intelligent person (the clips you don't see in his highly edited videos) he stumbles and bumbles his way into one logical fallacy after another.

He was a good hukster and smooth talker but lets not mistake that for intelligence.
 
He was a good hukster and smooth talker but lets not mistake that for intelligence.
This. A silver tongue is it's own gift, and a talented speaker can persuade you or stroke your own ego in ways that make you think he is amazingly insightful. The same guy can make the opposite arguments just as well, though. Being manipulative and a creative wordsmith is a kind of intelligence, tbf.
 
It's not conclusive either way at this stage. Let's not forget he murdered someone, so he was ◊◊◊◊◊◊ in the head.
Right, that's where we started with this and that's still where I am. If you thinking killing someone in cold blood is the answer to your problem, you'll lose most of the support you would have had from people who would be sympathetic to your problem.

I've had a chance now to read the charging document. Obviously any criminal complaintt is the prosecutor's desired narrative and the prosecutor's choice of evidence to present in favor of it. I've seen enough criminal complaints in Utah related to events I actually witnessed to come to a belief that they range from slightly exaggerated to to full-on fantasy. But in all cases the charging document presents at best a cherry-picked version of all the relevant facts.

Here the motives seem to be spelled out mostly to support the aggravating factor for capital murder. As I mentioned earlier, you can't charge someone with capital murder in Utah simply because you're really mad at them. The list of accepted aggravating factors is spelled out in statute and the complaint must allege facts that speak to one or more of those factors.

This is what I glean from the complaint :—

There was no CSI miracle here. As predicted, once surveillance photographs of the suspect were made public, the public took the initiative to bring the suspect into custody.

The relationship between Robinson and the roommate was likely more than just cohabitation. However, I believe it's a stretch to claim that the decision to commit violence is necessarily a consequence of "the trans." The consequence of Utah culture is that many more young people than usual must keep disapproved relationships secret from family, regardless of what exact factor makes that relationship unacceptable to the family.

According to the text message excerpts, the messages on the cartridge casings were indeed the memes others have characterized, but it's not clear whether Robinson intended them seriously or merely as distraction or a troll. It doesn't seem likely that Robinson is aligned with Groyper culture although he seems conversant with its expressions.

The testimony from the parents regarding Robinson's political beliefs is probably not going to be very strong moving forward. It was given after the fact, in the light of well-publicized speculation and accusation. And it is more likely to be the parents' observation and interpretation from a distance rather than an accurate expression of Robinson's politics. As a rule, people in Utah who embrace liberal ideas contrary to the conservative ideas they may have been brought up with don't discuss it extensively with their families. It's generally fruitless to do so.

The parents' testimony is necessary to support the enhancement that alleges Robinson's selection of the target was based on Kirk's political expression; it is unlikely the prosecution had any other evidence to go by. This, however, is not what makes it capital murder. The prosecutor chose the "great risk to others" aggravating factor. It's not spelled out explicitly what evidence is presented to support this, however in the narrative of the shooting the complaint notes that the bullet trajectory was near other people: Kirk's associates and the student asking the question. Whether this will stand up under a defense remains iffy. And sadly the only lawyers I can talk to about this are those that are known to be out of the running for Robinson's defense and hence not necessarily the most authoritative sources.

Count 6 (witness tampering) is not likely to withstand a good defense (as if that will matter in the final outcome). Robinson urges his roommate to stay silent and get a lawyer if questioned by police. This is more likely to have been intended as an admonition for the roommate to protect their rights under the Fifth Amendment as Robinson may have understood them.

But we come back around to the notion that acts of violence are not the inevitable consequence of this narrative pattern. There are countless LGBTQIA+ Utahns living in relative degrees of tension with family and society and operating under a steady stream of homophobia and transphobia—a fair amount of it from the state's own political and religious leadership. Despite those stressors, violence is quite rare. The Kirk murder clearly has more to do with problems the individual is facing than with perceived institutional indoctrination, policy, or message. Robinson wasn't facing any more or different "indoctrination" than countless other minorities in Utah who choose to respond non-violently, if they respond publicly at all. Robinson is just a nut with a gun.
 
It's now being questioned if the sms dialogue (as shown in the Adam Mockler video) is genuine.
MAGA people like Steve Bannon, Candace Owens and Matt Walsh think it's fake, but so does Keith Edwards:
Kirk Shooter's Text Messages Leak... THEY'RE FAKE?! (Keith Edwards on YouTube, Sep 17, 2025 - 10:34 min.)
I wouldn't put it past Kash Patel's FBI to doctor the documents, but I think the dialogue is probably real.
MAGA is just unhappy with it because it can't be used to blame the 'radical left', which is what I would have expected Kash Patel to have seen to if it had been faked.
 
He was raised in a culture that fetishizes guns, and by extension, violence.
Yes, he was, and I haven mentioned his upbringing in gun culture myself as an important point, but based on what we have seen so far, he doesn't sound like a typical violent gun fetichist.
 
It seems the conspiracy theories about the validity of Robinson's texts have already begun. And as would be expected, they are coming from... *checks notes* ... Steve Bannon?

Steve Bannon ‘Not Buying’ Charlie Kirk Shooting Suspect’s Text Messages

ETA: Ninja'd by mere seconds by dann.
I'll agree that it sounds scripted. I mean, young people who are close don't normally belaboredly spell things out like that. Half of my texts are in borderline shorthand code that someone else wouldn't be able to translate. But people are different, and just releasing made up ◊◊◊◊ is unlikely, although I recall that with Mangione a fake version of his manifesto made the rounds before the real one came out.
 
Wow. What a sharp, articulate young man. I have watched just a few of his Q&A sessions, but the one where a college student questioned his credentials and Kirk had to define autodidact was brilliant.
Charlie Kirk, on college and university campuses, was doing exactly what men like Dawkins and Shermer have been doing for decades.
Exactly.
Maybe you should watch a couple of other videos, ones that don't consist of the sound bites he edited together to make himself look smart.
Try the ones in post 720.
 
If you knowingly present fabricated evidence in a charging document you can be sanctioned and the charges can be dismissed. In egregious cases you can even be disbarred. This is a county prosecutor charging the most noteworthy criminal case of 2025 (so far). The chances that he is knowingly presenting fabricated text messages are effectively zero.

However a prosecutor can present a selection of evidence in the complaint. He can omit exculpatory evidence from the complaint, although he must include it in discovery. He can edit the evidence for clarity or brevity, but not to make it seem to say something different.

ETA: Whether Robinson and his roommate fabricated the conversation is, of course, another matter.
 
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I'll agree that it sounds scripted. I mean, young people who are close don't normally belaboredly spell things out like that. Half of my texts are in borderline shorthand code that someone else wouldn't be able to translate. But people are different, and just releasing made up ◊◊◊◊ is unlikely, although I recall that with Mangione a fake version of his manifesto made the rounds before the real one came out.

Valid points, and I am inclined to agree with the unlikelihood of the texts being fake as they are cited in an official document.

But then again, MAGA... so who knows.
 
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If you knowingly present fabricated evidence in a charging document you can be sanctioned and the charges can be dismissed. In egregious cases you can even be disbarred. This is a county prosecutor charging the most noteworthy criminal case of 2025 (so far). The chances that he is presenting fabricated text messages are effectively zero.

However a prosecutor can present a selection of evidence in the complaint. He can omit exculpatory evidence from the complaint, although he must include it in discovery. He can edit the evidence for clarity or brevity, but not to make it seem to say something different.
I was thinking more along the lines of the texts themselves being deliberately composed for prosecutors. I'm behind on this part of the story, but did they get thiese texts from Robinson's phone or 'my love', the BF's?

eta: I mean that someone presented a doctored set of texts to prosecutors, who believed them to be accurate, not doctored by the prosecutors. Its easy to alter a text exchange by editing the contact; I've done it, using a burner to generate the convo, and editing the origin afterwards, although under the deeper forensic examination of the texts, I think the actual origin of the text shows up, whereas on the phone screen it came from whoever you edited it to originate from.
 
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According to the text message excerpts, the messages on the cartridge casings were indeed the memes others have characterized, but it's not clear whether Robinson intended them seriously or merely as distraction or a troll. It doesn't seem likely that Robinson is aligned with Groyper culture although he seems conversant with its expressions.

i think this is an interesting thing as well. post modernist internet humor blurs those lines significantly. there’s an “alt right” guy named sam hyde who blurred these lines quite a bit, but last week was on twitter angrily and seemingly honestly raging that donald trump should take power and do something against the left and calling kamala harris an n to the point where it’s like, was he ever joking?

so yeah, you really want to go down those rabbit holes? is joshua moon a white supremacist incel or a free speech guy, it’s hard to tell what’s a joke and how much truth there is to it imo
 
An aside about gun culture. Out West, hunting is a common practice,
but it doesn't, I think (I hope), foster the unhinged fetishization of guns that we
find so frightening. Robinson is accused of using a scoped high power
rifle to kill Kirk, as almost any westerner could if he chose. A real gun fetishist would've tried that shot with an AR15 or
some cheaper derivative, because that's what the cool kids shoot, or anyway pose with in their
selfies.

I hope we aren't lapsing into a toggle switch definition of gun culture:
on-off, black gun slobbering vs angelic oh! dreadful things! dichotomy.
Too damn much of that non-thinking going on in the USA already.
 
...the one where a college student questioned his credentials and Kirk had to define autodidact was brilliant.
Forgot to mention: autodidact isn't a commonly used word, and through disuse (and general worthlessness) many users might need to be prompted for its meaning. The only time I hear it used is by uneducated people who are describing themselves and trying to sound intellectual. We had a banned member here use it to title one of his threads here recently in exactly that way.
 

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