Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[jimbob]

I'd say that the anti-fascist messages he'd etched on his rifle cartridges were evidence that he is a leftist. In fact, I'd say his very choice of target is evidence he's a leftist, in the same way that lynching a black guy is evidence that you're a racist.

Except in the context of the groyper subculture he belonged to. Which is virulently antisemitic.

ETA, or what @smartcooky said in the post above mine.

 

[jt512]

Might want to think about the priors on such a hypothesis.

Please explain what you mean by that

I mean that if you had no relevant information except that the victim was a right-wing activist, who should you consider to be the more-likely perpetrator: a rightist or a leftist?

 

[jimbob]

I mean that if you had no information except that the victim was a right-wing activist, who should you consider to be the more-likely perpetrator: a rightist or a leftist?

But that's not the case.

The shooter was part of groyper subculture, fanbois of a literal neo nazi who had been criticising Kirk.

If I said that an Israeli PM had been assassinated over the Palestine question, without further information would you think it was by a supporter of or opponent of Israel? But we all know who did that

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Kirk got a lot more hate and threats from the far/alt-right than from the Left, so the prior should be there.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is very revealing that you assume that you have to be a Leftist to be anti -Fascist.
Everyone but a Fascist should be anti -Fascist

It shouldn't need to be said that fascism is bad and a good thing to be anti, but here we are.

 

[dann]

It's called a Poe, and if you don't recognize it then you should hand in your skeptic's badge.
Not the best Poe though because I gave you plenty of clues. For a better example read Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

Sorry, but I wasn't Poe'd (or Cained or Ramjetted). I am also familiar with Swift.
What you don't seem to get is that, in an otherwise good piece of satire, it was a mistake to base part of it on the idea that Kirk didn't have a security detail to protect him. It is a much stronger message that he advocated for the second amendment to the extent that he found it acceptable that a number of people were killed every year because of lenient gun laws and yet tried to protect himself from becoming one of those victims. He did his best to prevent that sacrifice from happening but didn't succeed.
Your piece of satire would have been better if you had incorporated his hypocrisy instead of pretending that he willingly put himself out there as a victim.
I assume that this is also the reason why the other poster criticized this particular piece of your post.

 

[dann]

The question of course is, would someone who saw the effects of fascism vote for the current GOP which is using fascist methods to grab power.
If you doubt that I'd really advise you to actually read some history on how Mussolini and Hitler got to power. And then replace words like 'leftist/democrat/trans' with 'jew' and re-read GOP talking points.

I wouldn't be surprised if "someone who saw the effects of fascism" would "vote for the current GOP."
Look at what's happening in Gaza ...

 

[dann]

post 917

I would say let's see who ends up being embarrassed, but I know you guys will quit this thread the moment it is conclusive that he's a lefty TRA, thus avoiding all the embarrassment.

Why would "you guys (...) quit this thread the moment it is conclusive that he's a lefty TRA"?
Do you think that's what happened here?

I am still not sure that it's the case, but if this most recent killing was one young guy from the MAGA movement (possibly a now somewhat disgruntled member of the MAGA movement) killing another (but much more prominent) young guy from the MAGA movement, what will your message be to Republicans?

I think that the thread will be more or less over when the motive for the killing has been established conclusively, whatever that conclusion may be because that's the whole point of the thread.

 

[dann]

Laura Robinson on X, Sep 14, 2025
You know, one positive things I actually can say about Kirk is I can't imagine that he would want a database of people to track people who failed to praise him effusively enough after his death on pain of losing their livelihoods.

Balkanize Me, Cap'n on X, Sep 14, 2025
He not only absolutely would, he literally did.

Apparently, many people still think that Kirk actually stood for free speech.

 

[Darat]

What makes a left Wing ideology less likely, IMO, is the lack of any reference to the Gaza conflict - Kirk was very explicitly pro Israel no matter what.
It is unlikely that he spent a lot of time with Leftists, online or in RL, without the subject coming up.

Can we seriously call someone with his views "pro-Isreal"? He wanted Israel to exist as they believe that its existence is neccessary for the third temple to be built which ushers in the end of times, Jesus's second coming and the earth to be left to non-believers.

 

[smartcooky]

Sorry, but I wasn't Poe'd (or Cained or Ramjetted). I am also familiar with Swift.
What you don't seem to get is that, in an otherwise good piece of satire, it was a mistake to base part of it on the idea that Kirk didn't have a security detail to protect him. It is a much stronger message that he advocated for the second amendment to the extent that he found it acceptable that a number of people were killed every year because of lenient gun laws and yet tried to protect himself from becoming one of those victims. He did his best to prevent that sacrifice from happening but didn't succeed.
Your piece of satire would have been better if you had incorporated his hypocrisy instead of pretending that he willingly put himself out there as a victim.
I assume that this is also the reason why the other poster criticized this particular piece of your post.

What a load of sanctimonious drivel!
Absolutely everyone here (except you) understood his post for exactly what it was. Why on earth have you become so triggered just because you didn't?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Can we seriously call someone with his views "pro-Isreal"? He wanted Israel to exist as they believe that its existence is neccessary for the third temple to be built which ushers in the end of times, Jesus's second coming and the earth to be left to non-believers.

I think we should let the Israeli Government be the judge of that.
Kirk and the Evangelicals might hope and work for the death or conversion of all Jews, but one might be excused to cynically ignore that possibility and just take their money and support, since even if it happens it would be the End Times anyways.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Indeed. There is never any reason for a defendant to help the police and prosecutor build their case.


Or something like that. The reporting is open in saying they’re trying to find motive. That factors only slightly into how he’s charged. Did he intend to kill Kirk? That’s the only question that’s legally pertinent. Why he may have intended to do it is irrelevant legally, but is all-important politically.

The leverage is that the prosecutor hasn’t squarely landed yet on whether to seek the death penalty. If we want to be conspiratorial, it’s easy to imagine that they’ll promise not to seek the death penalty if he says “the trans” made him do it.

"Just read out this list of Democrats we've prepared who made you do it. Into that camera..."

 

[dirtywick]

But that's not the case.

The shooter was part of groyper subculture, fanbois of a literal neo nazi who had been criticising Kirk.

If I said that an Israeli PM had been assassinated over the Palestine question, without further information would you think it was by a supporter of or opponent of Israel? But we all know who did that

that's correct. if you're a radicalized alt right youth, how do you view kirk? he was a lying grifter after all, he wasn't really a white supremacist, but a globalist betrayer who manipulated the movement on behalf of the jews. or something to that effect, anyway.

if there was something there to the left wing trans ideology, the politicized fbi and maga government officials would be shouting it from the rooftops. two days ago they called for civil war against all leftists, they're firing people for not mourning hard enough. but they're silent. trump is ready to move on to talk about his ballroom, charlie kirk's wife is finishing the book tour. now, we need peace and unity, let's pray and not jump to conclusions.

it's a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ joke

 

[jt512]

But that's not the case.

I didn't say it was the case. That's what 'if" means.

 

[jimbob]

I didn't say it was the case. That's what 'if" means.

Which is fine, except for the timing as this post was after we knew who the killer was and that he was of a far right subculture that uses such phrases in a very specific (and antisemitic) way.


So you are not talking about the priors, but a hypothetical situation that didn't happen.

Which is pretty silly. Unlike the point that @smartcooky made.

Might want to think about the priors on such a hypothesis.

And you conveniently ignored the antifa etchings on the cartridges.

 

[arthwollipot]

I didn't say it was the case. That's what 'if" means.

I'm going to shock you and agree. If you have no other relevant information, there is an obvious conclusion to draw. But we're not in that situation any more. We have a lot of information which contradicts that first impression. So it's kind of irrelevant now.

 

[jimbob]

I'm going to shock you and agree. If you have no other relevant information, there is an obvious conclusion to draw. But we're not in that situation any more. We have a lot of information which contradicts that first impression. So it's kind of irrelevant now.

And we had that information [edit for clarity when at the time ] the conversation was taking place

 

[arthwollipot]

And you conveniently ignored the antifa etchings on the cartridges.

They weren't "antifa etchings". For a start they were engraved, not etched. Second, they're either game references (↑→↓↓↓ is the code in Helldivers 2 to call down an airstrike on your position) or trolls. Bella Ciao is used ironically and as provocation by the groyper community in the same way you might wear a rainbow pride shirt to a conservative Christian convention - not out of solidarity but to bait reactions - or come to a skeptics forum to spout creationist ideology. "Notices bulge" is a troll against furries.

None of this suggests that he had an anti-fascist ideology, merely that he was a gamer and a troll. "U triggered, bro?"

 

[jimbob]

None of this suggests that he had an anti-fascist ideology, merely that he was a gamer and a troll. "U triggered, bro?"

And more specifically a far right troll when taken in conjunction with his Pepe the frog stuff (which is sufficiently open that I was aware of it.

Just as the "notices bulges" only really makes sense if you are familiar with and using the strongly antisemitic idea of a "noticer" so much so that I can't imagine anyone outside the alt-right using it.