• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Reformed Offlian said:
For example, does the author actually *characterize* Voronin as morbidly obese, or does he just give a numerical weight? Because the latter could well turn out to be a typo. Perhaps he weighed 215 lbs, or 145 lbs.
Click to expand...
Well, we get this...
Vixen said:
Nelson writes, 'Alexander who weighed 245 pounds...'
Click to expand...
...although it's unclear how Nelson knew this. Did he ask? Did he just eyeball it?

Reformed Offlian said:
For that matter, why would he mention the guy's weight at all? What is the context? What's the point?
Click to expand...
And why such a specific figure? It's unlikely Voronin would have known his weight in pounds and it's unlikely he would have reported it in pounds when asked. 245 pounds doesn't equate to a round figure in kilograms, and people tend to report their weights in round figures—10s and 5s. Conversely if you're going to eyeball someone's weight, can you really eyeball a large person's weight to a 5-pound tolerance?

If you're going to write a character-driven fictionalization, it makes sense to physically describe your characters. A description like...
Vixen said:
and earlier, 'A Russian giant with a heavy shock of graying [sic] hair and beard...' ''a heavy-shouldered bear of a man...'
Click to expand...
...doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Dashiell Hammett describes Sam Spade in enough detail for us to conclude that he didn't look anything like Humphrey Bogart. Congruently he describes Caspar Gutman in similar detail, enough for us to know that Sydney Greenstreet (~360 lbs) was a good casting choice :—

The fat man was flabbily fat with bulbous pink cheeks and lips and chins and neck, with a great soft egg of a belly that was all his torso, and pendant cones for arms and legs. As he advanced to meet Spade all his bulbs rose and shook and fell separately with each step, in the manner of clustered soap-bubbles not yet released from the pipe through which they had been blown. His eyes, made small by fat puffs around them, were dark and sleek.​

In contrast, my company's statistician is 6′ 2″ tall (that's 188 cm, or six minutes and two seconds, for you non-Americans) and 250 lbs (by his estimate). He's what I might consider slightly overweight, but by no means "morbidly obese." He regularly comes along on company mountain hikes (i.e., up and down mountains) with no signs of distress. I'm fairly certain he could get in and out of a boat safely, mostly because I've seen him get in and out of boats with ease on Bear Lake and he's quite a passable sailor on the various fore-and-aft rigs we sail there. I can drink him under the table, but that's probably not the flex I want it to be.

Here's a guy from my summer theater program years ago who's now a stuntman at Disney in Florida. He plays the huge German mechanic (the Pat Roach character) that Indy fights around the flying-wing airplane. We were gym buddies until he moved away. He's well over six feet tall and well over 250 lbs. I'm pretty sure he could bench-press lifeboat, and I have no problem describing him as a "heavy-shouldered bear of a man." He's clearly not "morbidly obese," and I dare you to call him that to his face.

1757867256269.png

Voronin's demise eight years later is no evidence of some malingering condition that must have afflicted him while he was on Estonia. My father was a very active outdoorsman before contracting the illness that killed him two years later.

"A Russian giant" and "a heavy-shouldered bear of a man" is a pretty sad attempt to justify the notion that Voronin was some kind of invalid whose presence on a lifeboat is suspicious for health or physical reasons.
 
Last edited:
Mojo said:
And also, please provide a citation for the phrase ("thuds from the waves") that you quoted.
Click to expand...
Vixen said:
'Blows from the waves' = a poor translation by ONSE of 'thuds from the waves'. 'Blows' implies a third party actor, such as a person applying a hammer to a nail, or a fist making contact with a chin. A 'thud' more aptly describes a passive sound not caused by an actor acting on the object, in this case, 'the waves' acting of its own accord.
Click to expand...
Mojo said:
Did you really get the quotation from the report, or was it from whatever it was translated from?

If you had been quoting the report, your quotation would have said "blows", not "thuds". Please provide the source, and the quotation in the original, that you allege it was poorly translated from, so that others can judge whether it is the ONSE or you that has translated it accurately.
Click to expand...
To save others from having to read the (English version of) JAIC report's section 6.3.3 in search of this, it's on page 69 of the final report, right hand column, at the start of the first full paragraph in that column:
One witness, in a starboard cabin, was lying awake in his bed wondering about the blows from the waves and the ship's speed which he thought too high for this kind of weather....After the blow there was the familiar roar of the waves hitting the bow again....
Click to expand...
So far as I can tell from skimming this fast-moving thread, @Mojo's request for "the source, and the quotation in the original" from which the quotation was translated has not yet been addressed.
 
JayUtah said:
Well, we get this...

...although it's unclear how Nelson knew this. Did he ask? Did he just eyeball it?


And why such a specific figure? It's unlikely Voronin would have known his weight in pounds and it's unlikely he would have reported it in pounds when asked. 245 pounds doesn't equate to a round figure in kilograms, and people tend to report their weights in round figures—10s and 5s. Conversely if you're going to eyeball someone's weight, can you really eyeball a large person's weight to a 5-pound tolerance?

If you're going to write a character-driven fictionalization, it makes sense to physically describe your characters. A description like...

...doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Dashiell Hammett describes Sam Spade in enough detail for us to conclude that he didn't look anything like Humphrey Bogart. Congruently he describes Caspar Gutman in similar detail, enough for us to know that Sydney Greenstreet (~360 lbs) was a good casting choice :—

The fat man was flabbily fat with bulbous pink cheeks and lips and chins and neck, with a great soft egg of a belly that was all his torso, and pendant cones for arms and legs. As he advanced to meet Spade all his bulbs rose and shook and fell separately with each step, in the manner of clustered soap-bubbles not yet released from the pipe through which they had been blown. His eyes, made small by fat puffs around them, were dark and sleek.​

In contrast, my company's statistician is 6′ 2″ tall (that's 188 cm, or six minutes and two seconds, for you non-Americans) and 250 lbs (by his estimate). He's what I might consider slightly overweight, but by no means "morbidly obese." He regularly comes along on company mountain hikes (i.e., up and down mountains) with no signs of distress. I'm fairly certain he could get in and out of a boat safely, mostly because I've seen him get in and out of boats with ease on Bear Lake and he's quite a passable sailor on the various fore-and-aft rigs we sail there. I can drink him under the table, but that's probably not the flex I want it to be.

Here's a guy from my summer theater program years ago who's now a stuntman at Disney in Florida. He plays the huge German mechanic (the Pat Roach character) that Indy fights around the flying-wing airplane. We were gym buddies until he moved away. He's well over six feet tall and well over 250 lbs. I'm pretty sure he could bench-press lifeboat, and I have no problem describing him as a "heavy-shouldered bear of a man." He's clearly not "morbidly obese," and I dare you to call him that to his face.

View attachment 63877

Voronin's demise eight years later is no evidence of some malingering condition that must have afflicted him while he was on Estonia. My father was a very active outdoorsman before contracting the illness that killed him two years later.

"A Russian giant" and "a heavy-shouldered bear of a man" is a pretty sad attempt to justify the notion that Voronin was some kind of invalid whose presence on a lifeboat is suspicious for health or physical reasons.
Click to expand...
It depends, doesn't it? I had a work colleague who drank two pints of milk a day as he was body building, and young. If the average pen-pushing adult did that they'd be more Caspar Goodman than the bare-chested Grand Funk Railroad guy singing, 'I'm your Captain'.
 
W.D.Clinger said:
To save others from having to read the (English version of) JAIC report's section 6.3.3 in search of this, it's on page 69 of the final report, right hand column, at the start of the first full paragraph in that column:

So far as I can tell from skimming this fast-moving thread, @Mojo's request for "the source, and the quotation in the original" from which the quotation was translated has not yet been addressed.
Click to expand...
That's not true. He was given the link and the section number, together with chapter heading.
 
Vixen said:
That's not true. He was given the link and the section number, together with chapter heading.
Click to expand...
No, you gave a link with the word "blows" instead of "thuds" and claimed that "blows" was a "poor" translation. You have not given a citation or quotation for whatever it was translated from.

The fact that you quoted it as "thuds" shows that you were quoting something other than the report you cited, and the fact that you described it as a poor translation shows that you have access to the original that it was translated from. Please provide a citation to, and the relevant quotation from, the original so that people can judge for themselves whether your concerns over the accuracy of the translation are well-founded.
 
Vixen said:
Nelson writes, 'Alexander who weighed 245 pounds...' and earlier, 'A Russian giant with a heavy shock of graying [sic] hair and beard...' ''a heavy-shouldered bear of a man...'
Click to expand...
Okay, but how did he know that figure? More importantly, this doesn't sound like he's suggesting Voronin was morbidly obese, just big. Where does the "morbidly obese" bit come from? Is there any suggestion in Nelson's book that Voronin was unhealthy?
 
Vixen said:
No, just remarking that some working crew had no problem getting away - and good luck to them - so how come the so-called 'missing' Estonian senior brigade - all fit and healthy and off duty - are all 'missing' together, no bodies recovered?
Click to expand...
I'm going to go with {Marisa Tomei voice} - because they're dead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom