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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

MarkCorrigan said:
Bollyn is a noted liar and conspiracy theorist and not a credible source. Neither is Rabe but she is at least better. Where is the original claim by Rabe you say you are using so we can check her source please?

Oh and yet again what is software?
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www.postimees.ee

Ajakirjanik Jutta Rabe jätkab Estonia vandenõu-teooriat

Saksa teleajakirjanik Jutta Rabe jätkab süüdistusi Eesti ja Rootsi võimude aadressil, kuna need varjavat tõde parvlaeva Estonia huku kohta, kirjutab Eesti Päevaleht.
www.postimees.ee www.postimees.ee
 
Vixen said:
...it is a fact Rabe claimed Voronin was smuggling secret spacecraft stuff for the Pentagon.
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OK, citation please. What exactly was Rabe's claim about Voronin (her claims, not secondhand summaries or interpretations)? Why should it be believed? What evidence did she provide?
 
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Vixen said:
Let's face it, you were hoping Bollyn, a disinformation agent, was making things up, but he wasn't so you are disappointed it is a fact Rabe claimed Voronin was smuggling secret spacecraft stuff for the Pentagon.
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What is Rabe's source for the claim?
 
Vixen said:
Let's face it, you were hoping Bollyn, a disinformation agent, was making things up, but he wasn't so you are disappointed it is a fact Rabe claimed Voronin was smuggling secret spacecraft stuff for the Pentagon.
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Again, gibberish.

We want to know where you got the information because it appears to not be true. If you provide the source you used we can see where THEY got the information from.
Vixen said:
www.postimees.ee

Ajakirjanik Jutta Rabe jätkab Estonia vandenõu-teooriat

Saksa teleajakirjanik Jutta Rabe jätkab süüdistusi Eesti ja Rootsi võimude aadressil, kuna need varjavat tõde parvlaeva Estonia huku kohta, kirjutab Eesti Päevaleht.
www.postimees.ee www.postimees.ee
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Thank you.
No wait...

Journalist Jutta Rabe continues the Estonia conspiracy theory​



https://www.postimees.ee/1967021/ajakirjanik-jutta-rabe-jatkab-estonia-vandenou-teooriat#
German television journalist Jutta Rabe continues to accuse the Estonian and Swedish authorities of hiding the truth about the sinking of the ferry Estonia, writes Eesti Päevaleht.
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According to Rabe, the latter was the head of a Russian-US aerospace company, whose services were also used by the Pentagon.
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That isn't the original Rabe claim, that is a newspaper reporting Rabe's claim. So that isn't what you were asked for.

You hastily googled it didn't you?
 
junkshop said:
OK, citation please. What exactly was Rabe's claim about Voronin? Why should it be believed? What evidence did she provide?
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Rabe is just a journalist reporting information received from informants. I have no idea how reliable these informants are. However, Rabe and F Gregg Bemis were convinced enough to get DER SPIEGEL to sponsor the secret* dive to the MV Estonia to investigate for themselves, so convinced were they. Margus Kurm was more recently sponsored by Postimees (>€770K) to make a similar expedition. People don't do this because they are 'conspiracy theorists' they do it out of a desire to discover the facts for themselves.

*Secret dive, as in the secret nature of the dive.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Again, gibberish.

We want to know where you got the information because it appears to not be true. If you provide the source you used we can see where THEY got the information from.

Thank you.
No wait...





That isn't the original Rabe claim, that is a newspaper reporting Rabe's claim. So that isn't what you were asked for.

You hastily googled it didn't you?
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To recap, Junkshop quoted a newspaper citing Voronin's close relatives denying he had anything to do with spying or smuggling. He demanded a similar newspaper source citing Voronin was indeed an operative, so I provided same, as requested,
 
Vixen said:
Rabe is just a journalist reporting information received from informants. I have no idea how reliable these informants are. However, Rabe and F Gregg Bemis were convinced enough to get DER SPIEGEL to sponsor the secret* dive to the MV Estonia to investigate for themselves, so convinced were they. Margus Kurm was more recently sponsored by Postimees (>€770K) to make a similar expedition. People don't do this because they are 'conspiracy theorists' they do it out of a desire to discover the facts for themselves.

*Secret dive, as in the secret nature of the dive.
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Not a citation.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Again, gibberish.

We want to know where you got the information because it appears to not be true. If you provide the source you used we can see where THEY got the information from.

Thank you.
No wait...





That isn't the original Rabe claim, that is a newspaper reporting Rabe's claim. So that isn't what you were asked for.

You hastily googled it didn't you?
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Yes, you can google it because being common knowledge, it is easily googleable, unless you have just invented a rule that no googling is allowed by order of the management subject to pain of being MarkCorriganed.
 
Vixen said:
To recap, Junkshop quoted a newspaper citing Voronin's close relatives denying he had anything to do with spying or smuggling. He demanded a similar newspaper source citing Voronin was indeed an operative,so I provided same, as requested,
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No, you didn't. You replied with:
Vixen said:
Rabe worked for Der Spiegel. I don't know where she got her info from.
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That is not a source, nor a citation.

ETA: It may also be... inaccurate. I can find no record of Rabe working for Der Spiegel. She appears to have been a TV journalist. Per Wikipedia:
She worked as a freelancer for the German TV magazine Spiegel-TV for a number of years, as well as for Focus TV, ZDF, ARTE and NDR.
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ETA 2: Spiegel-TV is owned by Der Spiegel. Being generous, freelancing there could be seen as working for Der Spiegel. Still not a source or a citation though.
 
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Vixen said:
To recap, Junkshop quoted a newspaper citing Voronin's close relatives denying he had anything to do with spying or smuggling. He demanded a similar newspaper source citing Voronin was indeed an operative, so I provided same, as requested,
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You're lying again.

Provide Rabe's original claim that he was in a spacecraft business so we can check if her claim is credible.

You do realise that there is as it stands zero evidence he had such a business and therefore it is probable he did not, correct?
 
Vixen said:
Yes, you can google it because being common knowledge, it is easily googleable, unless you have just invented a rule that no googling is allowed by order of the management subject to pain of being MarkCorriganed.
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Why should we have to do your work for you?

If you make a claim you need to support it.

Pointing us at google and saying search is shifting your burden of responsibility on to us.

If you post it you own it.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Unless confirmed to the contrary, I assume Vixen's source is always estoniaferrydisaster.net and when she tells us what a person or newspaper said she's actually telling us what that website tells her they said. Whenever she uses another source my first instinct is to assume that was the result of a bit of googling to find someone who repeated what estoniaferrydisaster.net said.

Bollyn makes a bit of a change.
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Ironically, the main reason I know that Bollyn is one of her sources is because one time she linked his blog in an attempt to conceal the fact that she got a claim from Bjorkman. It didn't work; Bollyn links Bjorkman in his endnotes.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, you can google it because being common knowledge, it is easily googleable, unless you have just invented a rule that no googling is allowed by order of the management subject to pain of being MarkCorriganed.
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If you were basing your posts on sourced information, as you claim, you wouldn't need to be googling since you should have the references to the source available to you.

Or were you lying when you said:


Vixen said:
I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.
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?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
You're lying again.

Provide Rabe's original claim that he was in a spacecraft business so we can check if her claim is credible.

You do realise that there is as it stands zero evidence he had such a business and therefore it is probable he did not, correct?
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It would be a claim in her book Die Estonie which is in German and out of print or as in, Süddeutsche Zeitung on Saturday prior to 24 Sept 2002.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
And does she mention "Kosmos Association"? Vixen supplied that detail, so obviously it should appear in the source she actually used.
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You can read more about Bollyn and the suitcase here:

www.postimees.ee

Ida-Viru ärimehe salapärane kohver merepõhjas

Estonia pardalt üles toodud kohvri omanikku Aleksandr Voroninit ümbritseb salapära kui lääne ajakirjanikud on teinud temast võimsa relvaärika, siis Ida-Virus ei teata sellest vähimatki.
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