• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Andy_Ross said:
Yes.

Vixen can you lay out for us a timeline of the events.
What you think happened and how and why the ship was sunk.

So far you have put forward a number of mutually exclusive events and actions.

You must have your own preferred series of events.
Click to expand...
As I have pointed out from the start, a major news item about a Swedish filmmaker finding a hole in the hull, which was not mentioned in the JAIC report was what made me open a thread in current affairs. That others believe this is a conspiracy theory says more about them and is nothing to do with me. Over the years, various well-respected persons, Bemis, Kurm, et al have questioned the JAIC's unproven hypothesis. I am simply reporting what those challenges are.

When I was thirteen, I went on a school outing to the Science Museum. As soon as we arrived, a couple of forceful characters in my class persuaded us to all bunk off as soon as we arrived. On leaping on to the nearest bus with the others in bunking off, I was immediately overcome with regret, for I had been so much looking forward to looking around the museum with the teacher. Moral: don't let other people dictate what you are allowed to be interested in.
 
Last edited:
JayUtah said:
Indeed the typical fallback position is that “something” is wrong with the prevailing narrative, therefore we have to consider the alternatives, possibly all the alternatives. It doesn’t matter who’s right as long as the mainstream remains problematic and the conspiracy theorist remains a genius for figuring that out.

But that just introduces the conspiracy two-step. That’s the double standard by which you be standard is used to dismiss the findings of competent investigators and a much lower standard applies to anything the conspiracy theorist might propose. If they actually try to explain something, we find that there’s also “something” wrong with that explanation—invariably many more somethings than the conventional narrative. Thus any attempt to subject the conspiracy theory to the same standard of proof is met with such deflections as, “I don’t have time for such trivia.”
Click to expand...
Yes, and this is the 'why are you interested in this' two-step. We have Myriad saying we should just all go home and forget it and then we have JayUtah telling us he is the master licensed engineer and we should await his pronouncements on the matter. It is like the kids who all want to go to Disneyland and then you have a couple of geeks who prefer to go dinosaur egg-hunting; shame on them, shame! My ex-father-in-law was a trainspotter. Yes! How we made fun of him. But on his birthday we arranged a special day out on a steam-engine train, and do you know what? It was absolutely fantastic! Here endeth today's lesson.
 
I've just added this to my signature

"An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." - Aloysius Battista
Click to expand...

I heard it today and really liked it. Can't think why I'm mentioning it here.....
 
Andy_Ross said:
So you can't give us a timeline of the events that you think actually happened leading up to and following the sinking?
Click to expand...
Roughly about 12:40 EET witnesses report a jolt.
At approaching 01:00 the bridge crew changes hands
Shortly after this, as it changed to Swedish midnight several eyewitnesses, out of the just 139 survivors, felt, experienced or heard a heavy jolt or a bang.
Within fifteen minutes the vessel was listing violently from side to side.
Passengers in the lowest deck report rising water levels.
Within 35 MINUTES ship has sunk completely.
Communication down from about 12:58 iirc to 01:54.
 
Last edited:
junkshop said:
What is "fair enough"?
Are you accepting the Voronin family's statement that Aleksandr had no brother? That he was a restauranter and hotelier, rather than a smuggler of soviet technology?
Is this an admission that you have nothing to back up your claims that he owned a business called "Spacecraft" and/or "Kosmos Association", and "dealt in spacecraft"? Because I don't think you made up those claims yourself, but I do think that you are trying to avoid revealing where you found them.
Click to expand...
I reported what Jutta Rabe reported, and then you reported another newspaper, dated years later, in which Voronin's descendants denied he had ever been an arms dealer or had close relatives in Moscow. Both faithfully reported, as one would expect in a current affairs item. Which report is the correct one, as they cannot both be right? I would say the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Voronin's attaché case WAS in Piht's cabin and the Rocckwater guys did seem to seek it out. What does it mean? <shrug> Who knows?
 
So the book I ordered by Andi Meister arrived yesterday. I was surprised that it was quite a sizeable hardback and looked brand new, as I was expecting a tatty secondhand paperback with dog ears and yellowing pages. I have been too rushed off my feet to look at it properly yet but what I did look up was very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
 
Vixen said:
Roughly about 12:40 EET witnesses report a jolt.
At approaching 01:00 the bridge crew changes hands
Shortly after this, as it changed to Swedish midnight several eyewitnesses, out of the just 139 survivors, felt, experienced or heard a heavy jolt or a bang.
Within fifteen minutes the vessel was listing violently from side to side.
Passengers in the lowest deck report rising water levels.
Within 35 MINUTES ship has sunk completely.
Communication down from about 12:58 iirc to 01:54.
Click to expand...
So no explosives, submarines, nuclear waste, russian spies or disappearing crew?

Well, that's all settled then.
 
Andy_Ross said:
So no explosives, submarines, nuclear waste, russian spies or disappearing crew?

Well, that's all settled then.
Click to expand...
Braidwood reported seeing an incendiary device on the bow. A piece of metal was cut off from the bow and sent to various metallurgy labs by Rabe to analyse the specimens.

1757618060308.jpeg

Granted, it might have been left behind by naval divers earlier and they forgot to remove it.

Meister also seems to report a breach but I haven't read it properly yet.
 
Vixen said:
Braidwood reported seeing an incendiary device on the bow. A piece of metal was cut off from the bow and sent to various metallurgy labs by Rabe to analyse the specimens.

View attachment 63771

Granted, it might have been left behind by naval divers earlier and they forgot to remove it.

Meister also seems to report a breach but I haven't read it properly yet.
Click to expand...
OK, so taking in to account the explosives, submarines, nuclear waste, smuggled weapons, kidnapped crew and assassins.

What is your timeline of events?

Did it all happen? just some of it? none of it?
 
Vixen said:
As I have pointed out from the start, a major news item about a Swedish filmmaker finding a hole in the hull, which was not mentioned in the JAIC report was what made me open a thread in current affairs. That others believe this is a conspiracy theory says more about them and is nothing to do with me. Over the years, various well-respected persons, Bemis, Kurm, et al have questioned the JAIC's unproven hypothesis. I am simply reporting what those challenges are.
Click to expand...
No-one believes that you're simply reporting on current events and the investigation. You have explicitly advocated a conspiracy theory whereby the JAIC was involved in covering up what really happened with the Estonia, which was that it was sank by the Russians as revenge for it being used to smuggled Russian military gear, and the cover-up was to prevent a Russian invasion of the country of Estonia.

How can you believe that's what happened and say with a straight face you're not a conspiracy theorist?
 
Vixen said:
Braidwood reported seeing an incendiary device on the bow.
Click to expand...
No. Braidwood reports seeing an object that he claims is some sort of explosive, but he provides no evidence for that identification.

Vixen said:
A piece of metal was cut off from the bow and sent to various metallurgy labs by Rabe to analyse the specimens.
Click to expand...
We discussed the metallurgy at length several times.
 
Vixen said:
As I have pointed out from the start...
Click to expand...
And everyone else has pointed out from the start that your interest in MS Estonia extends no further than the conspiracy theories about it. You display no interest in, say, learning the sciences and skills that pertain to the investigation of the accident.
 
Vixen said:
Braidwood reported seeing an incendiary device on the bow. A piece of metal was cut off from the bow and sent to various metallurgy labs by Rabe to analyse the specimens.

View attachment 63771

Granted, it might have been left behind by naval divers earlier and they forgot to remove it.

Meister also seems to report a breach but I haven't read it properly yet.
Click to expand...
You remind me of my very first official ghost investigation. A couple had bought a wonderful Victorian-style home in Pacific Grove, CA. They thought it was haunted. I went to house twice, and was able to trace "footsteps" to loose water pipes in the basement that rattled. And I lucked out and determined the knocking on the wall by the master bedroom was from the wood paneling contracting from cold air (it sat opposite a window which got direct sunlight, I showed up just as the fog rolled in causing the temperature to drop 25 degrees F). I was really proud of myself. But when I informed the couple their house wasn't haunted they got upset, and questioned my judgement.

See, like you, they needed their beliefs confirmed, not explained away with reasoned observation, and evidence.

Meister full of crap. You've fed yourself a diet of lies until you've become fat with untruths. There were no explosives. They recovered the bow ramp, and the visor. Not sure how hard it is to visit these structures at their storage, but they're not in some secret vault somewhere. This was a basic maritime disaster where a design flaw on the single most critical piece of ship (the visor) combined with poor seamanship, lax crew standards for damage control, and poor training resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people. That's it. That's what happened.
 
Axxman300 said:
You remind me of my very first official ghost investigation. A couple had bought a wonderful Victorian-style home in Pacific Grove, CA. They thought it was haunted. I went to house twice, and was able to trace "footsteps" to loose water pipes in the basement that rattled. And I lucked out and determined the knocking on the wall by the master bedroom was from the wood paneling contracting from cold air (it sat opposite a window which got direct sunlight, I showed up just as the fog rolled in causing the temperature to drop 25 degrees F). I was really proud of myself. But when I informed the couple their house wasn't haunted they got upset, and questioned my judgement.

See, like you, they needed their beliefs confirmed, not explained away with reasoned observation, and evidence.

Meister full of crap. You've fed yourself a diet of lies until you've become fat with untruths. There were no explosives. They recovered the bow ramp, and the visor. Not sure how hard it is to visit these structures at their storage, but they're not in some secret vault somewhere. This was a basic maritime disaster where a design flaw on the single most critical piece of ship (the visor) combined with poor seamanship, lax crew standards for damage control, and poor training resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people. That's it. That's what happened.
Click to expand...
How mundane! Vixen's "facts" are so much more amenable to a future novel. I can hardly wait for publication.
 
Vixen said:
When I was thirteen, I went on a school outing to the Science Museum. As soon as we arrived, a couple of forceful characters in my class persuaded us to all bunk off as soon as we arrived. On leaping on to the nearest bus with the others in bunking off, I was immediately overcome with regret, for I had been so much looking forward to looking around the museum with the teacher. Moral: don't let other people dictate what you are allowed to be interested in.
Click to expand...

Is that Science Museum still open? Did you ever consider going to it at some later time?
 
Vixen said:
Yes, and this is the 'why are you interested in this' two-step. We have Myriad saying we should just all go home and forget it and then we have JayUtah telling us he is the master licensed engineer and we should await his pronouncements on the matter. It is like the kids who all want to go to Disneyland and then you have a couple of geeks who prefer to go dinosaur egg-hunting; shame on them, shame! My ex-father-in-law was a trainspotter. Yes! How we made fun of him. But on his birthday we arranged a special day out on a steam-engine train, and do you know what? It was absolutely fantastic! Here endeth today's lesson.
Click to expand...

I never told anyone to go home. What I said was, the effect if not the intent of your idiosyncratic fun here in this thread is to excuse the cause of the accident. You can keep doing it as long as you want to. I'll keep pointing it out. Think of me like your ex-father-in-law eagerly spotting Old Far-Fetched #243 steaming down the tracks yet again right on schedule hauling fifteen flatcars of blame-shifting excuses and two score tankers of industrial-grade nonsense. Woo woo!

That cause, by the way, was the many layers of misconduct and negligence that resulted in hundreds and hundreds of horrific deaths, which were the entirely predictable results of criminally irresponsible risk-taking at sea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom